I need help buying a tig

[jaded13640]

I have been getting by with a mig welder for years. But I'm heavily into drag racing now and plan to build my own chassis from the ground up. I have absolutely no experience with tig welding.

What I hope to achieve here is to become an educated buyer.

From previous research it appears that what I need is at least a 160 unit. Preferable an ac/dc unit so that I can weld steel and aluminum.

Questions,

Should I stick with the big name brands like Miller and Lincoln and Hobart? Or are there other, lesser known, brands that are just as good?

Cost is my main factor here. I really can't afford the going rate for a 160 unit brand new from Miller for example. Which leaves me with one of two options, Buy used or buy new or used from a store that will allow trading in of my mig and finance the new/used model I am to buy.



Possible additional option?

I see online in various places inverter welders that cost roughly half of that of their counterparts. Why are they so cheap? The old addage of getting what you pay for is ringing in my ears right about now. These look like the old units I use to see connected to a larger stick welder. They look like an addon tig provision for an existing unit of some sort.

Have any of you had any luck with these things. I've heard they are junk but the same people with that opinion don't seem to know exactly why that is the case.

Ok, that's enough for now. My brain is at it's daily limit.

Thanks,

Wayne

[jaded13640]

Here is an example of the cheap inverter tigs I've seen around.

Are these things junk? Or are they just a toy and not a real tool?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=91811

Thanks,

Wayne

[Wyoming]

Wayne,
I doubt seriously whether that TIG you linked to would give you much service for racing chassis builds. Save your money and find a larger unit whether it be of a major make or one of the Chinese made welders. For occasional use on non-critical work...and that does not include chassis work...a small TIG like you have linked to might be of use. You really don't want to skimp on the quality of a weld on critical work do you? The last thing I would want to be caught dead in would be any chassis welded up by a Harbor Freight welder.

Now as far as why the welders you've been looking at are so cheap...they're Chinese manufactured. Those units are manufactured for sale here in the states using quality control and specifications from the importers. Right now, those importers are looking at only two major factors...low pricing and profit. You aren't going to see a quality welder made here or in China at a cheap price. It won't take the Chinese long to start manufacturing quality welders for sale here in the states, but pricing will go up from the prices you see now. Quality isn't cheap no matter where the machine is made.

Pay the money or take your chances. Ultimately, you will have to be the one to gauge whether a cheap welder will do the work you want it to do. If a machine isn't up to the job you ask of it then it isn't a bargain at any price. That goes for either an American made or a Chinese manufactured machine.

Personally, I'd keep the MIG welder, wait until the right deal came around on a used major brand TIG and go from there.

[jaded13640]

Thanks. I had a feeling that the reason some of these units were so cheap was because they were built so cheaply. But again, I have no first hand experience as of yet.

I will keep my eye out for a used Miller or Lincoln or hobart that will suit my needs. My Mig welder is a Miller 175. I've built all kinds of stuff with it and would hate to get rid of it. I'll still consider getting rid of it but only if a dealer has a trade in policy. I'd like to get a used model from a dealer but so far the ones in my area don't sell used units because they don't take in trades.

So when we are talking about good quality brand machines, we're talking about Miller, Lincoln or Hobart? Are there any others to add to that list?

I have subscribed to this and about 3 other welding forums. I'm frequenting the classisfieds, if the forum has one, in search of a good used tig machine. I'd be a little leary of ebay unless the distance was close and the unit could be checked out first.

Can you think of any other resources where I might find a good used tig machine?

Thanks,

Wayne

[Mike W]

Just get a Dynasty 200 and don't look back. You only have to buy quality once.

[Vipernut]

Save, save, save and buy at least a quality unit used. You may want to rethink trading the mig in even if your budget dictates it. I've run into a few areas where I just couldn't use the TIG and pulled out the MIG. Same goes for speed, if I need something done quick, I'll pull out the 175.
The learning curve for TIG is fairly steep - that's another thing you have to look at. You'll go through at least 2 tanks of argon just getting to the point where you're running decent beads. If you plan on doing a chassis, you will have lots of out of position welds which you will have to practice quite often.

[JalopyBldr]

Just a thought, but there's a LOT of very serious drag racers and roundy-round racers that have built very competitive chassis using MIG. All the chassis coming out of Maynard Troyer's shop (well known race chassis builder) are put together with MIG.

[tooldude56]

I would seriously look at the new Miller 200 syncrowave and the new Lincoln precision tig 225 that start base at around $1,800.00.I have put some hours on both machines and this either of these would suit you well,then when you get some serious time under you belt,go after an inverter machine,like a dynasty.I really dont think that you would apprecciate the features of the expensive inverter in this stage of the game.Check Ebay.It it a great place to compare machines.

tooldude56

[trial&error]

if you really can't afford the bigger unit try the scratch start tig route. all you need is a stick welder(preferably ac/dc) a tig torch and some argon. i just bit the bullet and bought a torch last week. i haven't had much time to play with it, but the little bit i did play it worked well. torch and consumables were around $150. what and where are you racing? as mentioned earlier mig is widely accepted , but i know tig is required in certain tracks or groups.

[BWS29128]

If you'll give me a few weeks to get my collective crap together, I'll cut you a good deal on a Lincoln PrecisionTIG 185. It will come with (obviously) Work Clamp, a 15' Lincoln PT17 Tig Torch, Pedal Amptrol, and probably a couple of cups, collets, collet holders, and maybe a couple of pieces of Tungsten as well.

I'd like to move up to a larger machine with more options.

I'm not totally sure of what kind of $$$ I would be asking, and I'll happily take reasonable suggestions from other members of the board, but my first guess would be starting around $1200 or so---maybe less, maybe more---and well less than the $1800 for a new one. I paid a little over $2000 in May of 2006 for it brand new. It currently has approximately 40 or 50 hours on it....I primarily use it for AC-Aluminum at around 100Amps and use my Hobart Champion 10K for my DC TIG needs.

Just a thought.

[ScottS]

ThermalArc used to get a lot of good press on these forums... especially when you could buy their full-equipped 185-amp machine for $1500 new. They've raised their prices, but their machines are still nice. I bought a used ThermalArc 185 for $1500. Great machine! AC/DC, pulser, and just about every other feature you might want. All in a nice, small package that's easy to move around.

If you haven't done any TIG welding, it might not be a bad idea to sign up for a class. As somebody else mentioned, there's quite a learning curve. Aluminum is especially difficult. Taking a class would give you some time to use a TIG machine, perhaps multiple different brands of machine, and might give you a feel for what features and capabilities you'd want. If you're serious about aluminum, for example, you might find that you need more power than a 160A machine provides and a water-cooled torch. On the other hand, if you're dealing with thin-walled tubing like the stuff I recently used to TIG a bicycle frame you can get by with a lot less power. Most of my welding on the bicycle done at 40-45 amps!

If you don't care about a pulser and you've got a lot of amperage available, you might look for a deal on a used transformer-based machine. In my area, Miller and Lincoln transformer machines come up for sale much more often than inverters and the prices are usually pretty good. You just need a 50-, 60-, or 70-amp 220V circuit to power them...

[kenc]

Another vote for the Thermal Arc-185.
A lot of folks will say it is the equal of the Dynasty 200 at about $1200 less.
I spent yesterday toying with mine and am super happy with it.
More bells and whistles than you'll probably need, but they are there for when you
develop your skills.
Stay away from the various Chinese made Inverter machines. I have heard too many "smoke emitting diode" jokes about them for my taste.

Ken

[jaded13640]

Thanks guys. I will be avoilding the chineese built pieces.

Who makes the Thermal-arc 185 or the Dynasty 200?
How much are they going for new right now?

Scott, thanks for the advise about taking a class. It makes a ton of sense to use the college's gas during the learning process. I'll check out the Lansing college's catalog.

BWS29128, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you offering to sell me your machine. I'll be staying in touch with you about this. Thank you so much!

trail and error, I'm into dragracing. In order for a chassis to be certified to run faster than 7.50 seconds in the quarter mile must be built from chrome moly. All chrome moly must be welded using "an approved tig/heliarc process". That is per the 2007 IHRA offical rule book.

My old car is built from mild steel and tig welded. I've gotten flak from the tech guy for adding a support bar behind the seat using mig because it "doesn't match all the tig work on the rest of the cage"

It's just getting to the point where everything has to be tig welded. We're not quite there yet but it's getting close. I don't what to be the last guy stubbornly hanging on to my mig gun when everybody else has already gone to building everything out of tig.

Thanks to everyone for all their help,

Wayne

[Aerometalworker]

Originally Posted by jaded13640

In order for a chassis to be certified to run faster than 7.50 seconds in the quarter mile must be built from chrome moly. All chrome moly must be welded using "an approved tig/heliarc process". That is per the 2007 IHRA offical rule book.


Thanks to everyone for all their help,

Wayne

Wayne,
Last time I worked on a Chassis ( 2005) I contacted the head technical director at the time for the NHRA about the specification for welding. We went through some technical and engineering discussion and came away with both TIG and O/A ( not in writing )being approved on 4130. Basicly the NHRA is following AC 43.13B from the FAA on the welding specification for 4130. There may soon to be an update to this document advising to anneal/normalize highly stressed weldments done in repair. Due to some TIG failures in drag racing there has been talk of revisions requiring a post weld anneal/normalize (old terminology) in the NHRA as well. Apparently the requirement for TIG welding in the NHRA was to discourage questionable workmanship by hoping someone who had the money for TIG equipment also had the knowledge, and not by much actual engineering evaluation. 4130 has been arc ( stick and Mig ) welded in production for years in aircraft with an excellent service record, but they had a process and engineering evaluation to back them up, and it was not Mig it and ship it.

Where am I trying to go with this
You stated you have to TIG everything, how much experience do you have with TIG? How well do you torch weld 4130? Have you researched cooling rates, embrittlement, quench hardening and other properties of the metal? I would advise you to be armed with this before spending money on a blue yellow or red shiny box.

Its easy to make a pretty TIG weld in 4130, one that has no strength or more importantly ductility. I would advise taking a class on welding this material specificly, and the only places that I know of are Aviation Mechanics programs at many Tech schools. Most welding programs outside of this will have very little and or wrong ideas on the material. Practice with someone who is well versed with the material and understands what is going on. Be SAFE! Education and mindful work are the best ways to stick around in that hobby.

Good Luck
-Aaron

[jaded13640]

Aaron. I basically understood what you said about taking a class.

But what you were trying to get at with the discussion about NHRA rules completely escaped me.

Would you mind simplifing what you were trying to say about that?

As far as taking a class. Yes, I totally agree and I'm going to research it tomorrow or maybe tonight if the college has a decent web based catalog.

Thanks,

Wayne