Mig for 1/4" Mild Steel

[BigEd_36]

I mainly weld little projects around the home garage, and stuff on cars (roll cages, etc) where I don't need the capabilty of even 1/4", but down the road there may be a trailer or 2, which would probably use some 1/4" material.

I presently have a Handler 180, but I would like to upgrade to a unit that is realistically 1/4" capable, without double pass welding or using flux core. I've been considering the Ironman 210 and the Millermatic 210. It seems everybody loves the Millermatic 210, but I don't seem to hear a lot about the Ironman 210. How does it compare? The Millermatic 210 would be a great way to go, but it's a little pricey, and $$$$ is always a concern. I don't see any real need for the aluminum capabilities, or the "gun on demand" features, but it is a great welder.

Dan's reviews of the new Handler 187 seem like that could be a good way to go, but the "door charts" don't show a 1/4" capability without going to double pass welding or flux core wire.. The price would be much easier to take, and the portability would be nice.

The Millermatic 175 shows "door chart" settings that include 1/4" with wire and gas, but the Handlers don't show any settings over 3/16" without going to double pass or flux-core, so would the Millermatic 175, or the new Millermatic 180, be a good way to go?

Since I already have the Handler 180, is it even worth upgrading for what I want to do? Or just keep what I've got and use it? I could just use it, and fall back on the ol' Lincoln tombstone 180 AC (an oldie but a goodie) for the thick stuff.

Sorry to throw in so many questions at once, but I'm a fast typist, and it seems like my posts can turn into short novels before I know it!!

Thanks in advance,
Ed

[MAC702]

Here's one thread for the search "IM210 MM210":

http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/...ht=IM210+MM210

For very little more money, you get the MM210, with its better gun, duty cycle, etc.

I've welded lots of 1/4" with the MM175 in GMAW. Your duty cycle will be low, but it has the guts. I was using CO2 at the time, which gives you an edge over an argon mix for penetration, but you will get more spatter at the top end.

[Dan]

Ed, on 1/4" the HH 187 door chart is set up conservatively on purpose for inexperienced operators. I guarantee you though the unit has enough top end power to make a solid 1/4" weld in a single pass with tap #7. Plus the inductance is real good, so the puddle wets out real well, and the spatter level is fairly light for the power level. I ran the HH 187 at 3 different locations, and in each case I was able to get an output around 21.5 to 22 load volts @ 180 - 188 amps from tap #7.

I 've ran the MM 175 and MM 180, and the top end on either of them is no where near as good as the 187. The power level is there, the inductance level just isn't. I 'll state though, that I ve been told they made some modifications to the MM 180 on field test units after mine. Once these modified units are returned I'm supposed to get a quick look at one. The version of MM 180 that i saw was fairly nice on 1/8" much better then the MM 175. I'm suspecting these modifictions to the MM 180 included more inductance, which should only enhance this 1/8" performance with the type of arc that the MM 180 has. Hopefully I'll know more on this soon. Then I'll start letting yopu guys know more about the MM 180.

Ed I'll be honest here, between the HH 180 and the HH187 there is no comparison. The arc quality and weld puddle wetout on the HH 187 are far superior. I had a HH 180 in my possesion for about a year and ran it quite a bit off and on, just to remind me why I disliked it. Having quite a bit of time logged in on a HH 180 and HH 187, if I owned a HH 180 I wouldn't hesitate for even a moment, to sell it and purchase the much nicer performing HH 187.

I am one of the founding fathers of the MM 210 cult and it most definitely is a nice unit. Pricey yes, but real nice. Sorry can't help you on the Ironman 210. Havent been able to convince Hobart to send me one to tryout.

[BillDaCatt]

Hey Dan,
Just wanted to let you know that I have taken your advice and ordered a HH187. It should be here on Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll let you know what I think. I had been considering a MM210 but I did not want to spend the money for it and I do not feel I really need the extra power of the 210. I work with lots of 1/8" and sometimes 1/4" for most of my work.

The added bonus in my case is the local Airgas dealer had not heard of them yet and quoted me $625 before he placed the order. Once the order was placed, he got this surprised look on his face and told me that although he would honor his quote to me, he could not buy one for himself that cheap. Lucky day for me!

I'll let you guys know how I like it after it arrives. (I'm so excited!)

Anyone want to buy a HH180 with only about 4 hours of actual weld time on it? The fan of course has seen much more time than that.
Dave

[Dan]

Originally Posted by BillDaCatt

Hey Dan,
Just wanted to let you know that I have taken your advice and ordered a HH187. It should be here on Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll let you know what I think. I had been considering a MM210 but I did not want to spend the money for it and I do not feel I really need the extra power of the 210. I work with lots of 1/8" and sometimes 1/4" for most of my work.

The added bonus in my case is the local Airgas dealer had not heard of them yet and quoted me $625 before he placed the order. Once the order was placed, he got this surprised look on his face and told me that although he would honor his quote to me, he could not buy one for himself that cheap. Lucky day for me!

I'll let you guys know how I like it after it arrives. (I'm so excited!)

Anyone want to buy a HH180 with only about 4 hours of actual weld time on it? The fan of course has seen much more time than that.
Dave

Dave, the unit does real well with .030 on 1/8" and thicker. My personal preference after running the unit for over a year on this thickness range is the .030. The door chart well show tap #5 for 1/8". I recommend giving tap #4 a try though, I think you'll like the results it produces a little better over tap #5. Tap #5 produces more of a hot production level type weld travel on 1/8". The resulting weld bead is real nice, but the travel speed is fairly quick. Tap #4 is still plenty hot enough for 1/8" and gives you a little more time to react.I'll warn you ahead of time the arc quality of tap #4 is amazing when dialed in properly. On 1/8" if you go with an .030 wire try around 60 -65 on the wire speed with tap #4. If you go with an .035 wire try around 50 on the wire speed with tap #4. The above is based on pushing the weld puddle.

Be prepared the HH 187 is going to be a totally different unit perfromance wise then your HH 180. Understand, if I am backing something this strongly, it is pretty good, not perfect, but darn good.

[BillDaCatt]

Thanks again Dan. I tend to run my HH180 on tap 2 and 3 as it is. Tap 2 out of position and 3 in position. My HH180 runs hot, harsh, and loud. I found that I can coax some pretty good beads out of it by running .023 solid wire w/c-25 and just letting it be hot and harsh with a wire speed of 45-55. Did I mention that it is loud? Flux-core wire is much quieter, but the splatter and smoke was very annoying and I never did finish the spool of flux-core that came with it. I am currently on my second 10lb spool of .023 wire and have been fairly happy. But I instinctively knew that there was something better out there.

I am very excited to see the difference in the HH187. I am already certain I made the right choice though.

BigEd_36,
Sorry for hijacking your thread. I'll return it back to you now. If you can afford it, go with the MM210. If you want to stay with a smaller sized welder and get the most bang for your buck, get the HH187. If Dan says it's good. That's good enough for me!
Dave

[Dan]

Originally Posted by BillDaCatt

Thanks again Dan. I tend to run my HH180 on tap 2 and 3 as it is. Tap 2 out of position and 3 in position. My HH180 runs hot, harsh, and loud. I found that I can coax some pretty good beads out of it by running .023 solid wire w/c-25 and just letting it be hot and harsh with a wire speed of 45-55. Did I mention that it is loud? Flux-core wire is much quieter, but the splatter and smoke was very annoying and I never did finish the spool of flux-core that came with it. I am currently on my second 10lb spool of .023 wire and have been fairly happy. But I instinctively knew that there was something better out there.

I am very excited to see the difference in the HH187. I am already certain I made the right choice though.

BigEd_36,
Sorry for hijacking your thread. I'll return it back to you now. If you can afford it, go with the MM210. If you want to stay with a smaller sized welder and get the most bang for your buck, get the HH187. If Dan says it's good. That's good enough for me!
Dave

Dave I'd set that roll of .023 a side for thinner material. Reason being, is because on 1/8" and thicker you are going to be way beyond the short circuit transfer range of an .023 wire, which is going to result in a rougher arc and metal transfer then a larger diameter wire. Take my word on this, putting that wire aside and picking up a roll of .030 is worth it. L-56, Radnor, HB-28 (if you can find a good roll), and even the cheap stuff from the farm store all have ran well on the HH 187. L-56 runs the best, however, the Radnor is pretty close to the same as the L-56. Keeping this in mind and the fact that Home depot or Lowes are the only local places that I can find L -56 in an 8",at around $37 a roll , I ve decided to stick with the Radnor at around $23 a roll. I wish I didn't have issues with finding quality wound rolls of HB-28, because it has the widest window of wire speed range with each tap.

Dave ifyou set the HH 187 up with a roll of .030 solid wire and C-25 on 1/8" - 1/4" your going to be majorly pleased with how much better the arc quality is over the HH 180. With tap #4 on 1/8" I am able to produce welds that are basically spatter free. The trace of spatter that is left behind on the basemetal, is so fine and minimal in volume that you have to run a bare hand across the base metal along the edges of the weld to even know that it exists. Ok, if you use a magnifying glass you can see it too. BTW, since Ed is potentially interested in the MM 210, I'll state that my MM 210 produces the exact same results on 1/8" to with an .030 solid wire and C-25.

[cope]

as usual. The MM210 is the ultimate home hobbyist welder IMO, but the HH 187 is really a wolf in sheeps clothing. You will not be sorry you bought it for up to 1/4", and even if you need a larger machine later, it's portability would keep it in my shop.

[Sberry]

I am with Cope and Dan, I am a 2 machine shop too. I need a 250 class machine but a smaller one earns its keep with smaller wire and as a tackup unit when we are busy, occasional exhaust work alone has paid for a smaller unit. I have trouble reaching over to turn the dial let alone changing wires and setups for each occasion. Any of these machines will easily out perform most operators. I like to read Dan to know what the finer details are but I am point and shoot for the most part.

[arcdawg]

I got commisioned to make a series of table top sculpture out of .25 plate. They get welded up with a pm215. (really nice machine) I follow the door chart and then grab some scrap to run a few beads till I am happy the go to it.

I do a slight bevel on the piece before welding them but I dont go crazy with them and I just take my time when welding them up. I would like to see how the machine ran on a mix gas over C02 cause I feel that its got sooooooo much more potential.....

[harcosparky]

We were looking at the 175 - 180 class machines.

We opted for the MM210 - not for the extra power - but for that all elusive extra Duty Cycle. I have yet to find anyone complain about the MM210.

If there is a downside to the MM210 it'd be size and weight but it comes with wheels.

I think the 175 could do 130 Amp at 30% Duty Cycle. The MM210 on the other hand did 130 Amp at 100% and 160 Amp at 60%.

Again more then we 'need' but something to grow into.

[BigEd_36]

Well, guys, the decision has been made. I stopped at Praxair/Hobart Industrial Gases in Fort Wayne after work tonight. Blasted the crap outta the budget and I'm getting the Millermatic 210. I had pretty well decided to get the Handler 187, as I figured it should do anything I reallistically would be doing, but really longed for the MM 210. Kathy (wife) said something along the lines of "you wanted a MM 210, but said you could do with the Handler 180. Now, you're sellin' it for $100+ less than you paid to update to a Handler 187, when you really want the MM 210. We're not doing this again, so get the MM 210 now!" Well, who was I to argue with her? She told me to get the MM 210 the first time, and I didn't. I figured if I even thought about mentioning upgrading again anytime in the foreseeable future, I would be in deep doo doo, so what the h***, I went for it. It is supposed to arive from the Indianapolis store/warehouse tomorrow. I don't have to work tomorrow so it should be in the garage by tomorrow night!! I'm like a kid at Christmas, I know I'm not gonna sleep worth a crap tonight! Man, they did have a good price on the Handler 187, tho!! $626!! That would sure have been easier to take than the $1279.95 for the MM 210, but the MM 210 price is the best I've seen lately!!

BigEd

[dda52]

That is a pretty good price for a MM210. Be very glad you listened this time. I am sure you will love it. Make sure you get some .030 wire for it.

[Sberry]

The price is right on that Hobart though.

[Dan]

You'll have yourself a nice unit with the MM 210. I would be willing to bet though, that you could have saved yourself $600+ and went with the HH 187 instead. A couple days back, I ran well over dozen 3" long beads in about a 15 minute time frame, with my HH 187 on 1/4" MS, using tap #7. The unit never shut down and the air coming out the back was cool. The duty cycle rating is definitely conservative. Oh well, I have a feeling you'll like the NEW MM 210. Just remember the golden rule is to always feed it .030 when running a solid wire.