Thinking about a "beginner welding machine"??

[Engloid]

I've seen this asked so many times, I did a little research and posted this on another website (so some of you may have seen this already). I will have to put it in two posts since the writeup is so long. First will be some general notes, then will be specifics, some comparison, and summary.
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You don't know if you'll even like welding? Then don't buy a machine at all...borrow one or go to somebody else's place and use theirs. PERIOD.

Let’s Talk Resale(afterall, you just want a temporary machine, right?

When you are a kid and learn to ride a bicycle, you get training wheels at first. After you get the steering idea down, you take off the training wheels.... but did the training wheels really help you to learn to ride? No. You can't learn to ride a bike with training wheels on it. Ok, off that soapbox for now...

So your parents pull off the training wheels and probably throw them away. ****, they're not worth anything and you're not going to use them anymore. I mean, you may have a bike that was $70, and the training wheels aren't worth even $5. As mentioned, training wheels don't teach you to ride a bike....and if you have a POS welding machine that won't work for **** no matter what you do, you're not going to learn to weld well with it either.


Now, lets relate this to welding machines. If you want to go get a piece of **** machine from sears as a beginner machine, you will end up in the same situation... when you decide to step up to a better machine, this one will likely be worthless. So you've wasted money that you could have put towards a good machine that will last you forever, not just while you're learning to weld. And, you'll be kicking yourself in the *** when you see how much difference there will be when you have a good machine vs a junker. Typically, any machine that has both 3phase and single phase capabilities will be more valuable for resale. These machines will hold value well, especially if well cared for. It's a good idea to take an air hose and blow out the internals of any welding machine every month or so. Too much dust collecting causes the internals to not cool as well. Here's one way to look at it: If you go to sell a car, and you've painted it green, you've automatically lost about 9 of 10 potential buyers....so demand is low and your sale price will be also. Likewise, the SD and the PT are both single phase machines and the average professional shop that wants a used welding machine will prefer 3 phase. Probably 99.9% of all hobby welding machine owners will only be able to use single phase. So, by getting a machine that will support single and three phase power input, you will have a larger pool of potential buyers if you choose to sell. Also, don’t lay tools and crap all over a machine, because when you buy something appearance matters, and it will to the person you sell it to also. Trust me here guys..there's a reason nearly every experienced welder will not reccomend a $99 mig welder from Harbor Freight....even for a beginner.

You Want A Cheap Machine?
I'll tell you my advice for the cheapest machine I'd recommend. It's the Hobart Handler series machines. Sure, they run about $400...4 times that of the $99 pos at Harbor Freight. The difference is that it will last longer, work better, have better service, and better availability of parts. I'd bet my left nut that it would outlast the HF junker by about 6-10 times, making it much better for the money. Even one day if you buy a $5000 TIG machine, this little Hobart will still be your best option for many things, such as auto body work. You will NOT outgrow this machine, even if you get another machine.

So, in short, I don't believe that a "beginner" machine is anything other than a waste of money. Buy something good, and it will last you much longer. Should you decide to get rid of it, you can sell it and get good money back for it. The better name brands of machines hold resale value pretty well. For example, I got a Lincoln PT175, had it for 2 years. I paid $1500 and sold it for $900...and that was a deal for that guy. I saw one go on ebay for $1200 just a week before. If you buy a POS machine, you may not even be able to sell it when you no longer want it.

What Is Duty Cycle?
Remember how the Pyramid amps said they put out 200 amps? Did they? No, they didn't. Therefore, I'd not pick one machine over the other because one says it's "rated" a few amps more. Think about Fosgate and Soundstream amps...they win competitions because they underrate them. I once bought a Fosgate 40watt amp that had an actual output of 142watts. Granted, I don’t think there’s such a great falsification of information when talking welding machines, but still yet, if Miller says a machine runs 180 amps and Lincoln’s competing model says it puts out 185 amps, this is not anything to make a buying decision on.

And, as you will read below, you will see that in the duty cycle chart that shows the Dynasty 200 at 150 amps (at whatever duty cycle), this does NOT mean that is its maximum output. Duty cycle basically tells how long you can work the machine at a given amperage setting. An analogy: You may be able to run 20mph (yeah, right) for one mile, but then you have to walk for 2 in order to rest up. However, you may be able to run 15mph for 2 miles, and only have to walk for one mile afterwards…and maybe you can run all 3 miles, but only at 10mph. This is what duty cycle is like. A machine that says it can weld 200 amps at 100% duty cycle, can weld nonstop at this anperage, without time to cool down. If it can weld 200 amps, but onl a 50% duty cycle, then it means that for every 10 minutes of time, the machine should be used for only 5 minutes (50% of that time). You will notice that in many cases, one manufacturer will show their machines amperage at 50% duty cycle, and the other company may show their machine’s amperage at 60% duty cycle. This is likely just a ploy on behalf of one of them to cmake you think you’re getting more amperage…especially if you aren’t familiar with the basics of duty cycles.

[Engloid]

Comparisons of a Couple Machines

LINCOLN PT185
Spec Sheet on PT185: http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ature/e336.pdf
Rated at 185amps with a LOW 15% duty cycle. This means that if you are welding at 185 amps, you will only be able to weld 3 minutes of every 20 that it's on. In other words, you can use it for 3 mins and it will likely kick a thermal overload and take 20 mins to cool down and turn back on.
At 90 amps, it has a 100% duty cycle. Keep in mind that aluminum typically takes quite a bit more amperage than stainless or carbon steels.
Digital meters. They can come in handy at times, especially for beginners.
The PT185 says it comes with a torch that's aircooled and rated at 150amps.....which is less than the machine is rated for. I have personally owned one of these torches, and they will get too hot to hold with regular leather gloves when welding 3/16" aluminum. Not only that, but the torch handle is very brittle and will break if you drop something on it. It is thin and brittle. I know, I used to have one.
It has "Micro-start technology"...wow...big word for nothing special.
Auto-balance for AC... useless. I'd rather have manual.
Built-in pulser- It has only one function, Pulses Per Second.
"Fan As Needed" - this means that the fan only works when it needs to, saving electricity.
I have been told that as soon as you strike an ark with the Lincoln, it will turn on the fan and stay on for at least 6 minutes, reguardless of the thermal load.
Power input is only capable of single phase. Not that you need 3 phase, but that ability will make it worth more for resale.
3 Year warranty on parts and labor.
======================================
MILLER 200 DX
http://millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf
Rated at 150 amps with 60% duty cycle (notice PT185 was very low duty cycle here), 100 amps at 100% duty cycle (lincoln hit 100% at 10 amps less). ****, they'd both probably hit 200, but the duty cycle would be lower. Notice on page 2 of the spec sheet, the amperage range does show a high of 200 amps. The duty cycle specs do not indicate maximum amperages for either machine.
Offers more user controlled variables for Pulse feature, not just Pulses per second.
Offers sequencer controls. (probably wont need then though).
Digital Meters.
Post flow, preflow
This is an inverter type machine, and has MUCH better abilities for welding of aluminum. Rather than be a set 60hx frequency, you can change it fro 50-120hz.
"Fan-on-Demand" Just like Lincoln machine, except that it will only turn on when the unit gets a thermal load justifing the need to use that electricity for the fan.
Automatically senses the voltage input and switches automatically.
only 45lbs.
Extended Balance Control range (30-90% EN) (an advantage of most inverter type machines).
$188 for water cooled torch (not including water cooler)
3yr parts and labor warranty
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MILLER 180SD
Spec Sheet: http://millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-4.pdf
Max amps at 180.
150amps at 40% duty cycle...so it stands to reason that it can probably compete well, if not beat the PT185's crappy 15% at 185 amps.
Digital Meters (won't make a better welder, but they're nice to have)
Counts welding time and arc starts (dunno why you'd need it)
No pulse option.. (falls last here, but since the PT185 has crappy pulser, it's not far behind)

Costs Down the Road/Accessories
As I've always said, Lincoln may be a little cheaper at times on the prices of the machine, but in the end, you will pay more...see below for an idea of how they screw you after you buy their products. It all adds up over the years you hope to own the machine and you will pay more for the Lincoln than you think in the long run.

Water Cooled Torch Comparison:
Lincoln = $359 for a 10foot lead
Miller = $188 for a 12foot lead
Advantage: Miller ($171 and 2 more feet long)

Water Cooler Comparison:
Lincoln = $792 with no reference to what amperage range it's rated for
Miller Coolmate3 = $590 rated up to 600 amps!!
Advantage: Miller ($202 and likely rated higher than the Lincoln.)

Foot control Comparison:
Lincoln= $277
Miller= $226
Advantage Miller ($51)
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SUMMARY
The Dynasty is a clear first, but of course it costs quite a bit more. I don't think I need to explain this decision because it is so clear already. I know it costs more, but if the price is an issue, your best bet is a used machine with more power, rather than a new one that has less. The only debatable issue is which of the other two should get second place. Although the Lincoln PT185 boasts a whopping (sacrasm) 5 more amps, I think that the Miller SD by far will make up for this by having a much better duty cycle. Also, the Lincoln mas a built in pulser, but with it not having but one variable to change (pps), this is not a major issue to consider...whereas the price of optional accessories down the road is. So, in short I value the cheaper accessories and better duty cycle more than I value 5 more amps and a crappy pulser.

Rankings:
#1 Dynasty 200DX
#2 Syncrowave SD 180
#3 PT185

That said, if you want to stay around $2000, but want versatility....you may want to consider a used machine. I bought an older Syncrowave 350. You will have plenty of power with this machine. It will be quite a bit larger than the Dynasty, but it also will put out just over 400 amps at a higher duty cycle. This is no toy machine, it's professional quality...tried and tested winner in heavy industry. That's why I got one. The price is nice, and I've used them on different jobs ever since they came out new. Keep in mind that if you buy something like this, shipping my run a bit of money because it's about 600lbs. Likewise, the Sncrowave 250 and 300's are also good machines to find used, if the price is right. You really won't need pulse for hobby work, and if you do you can later buy a pulser that plugs into it. These machines will also accept the accessories listed above. All the Miller stuff is pretty universal. Where the smaller machines will boast welding 1/4" steel, the Syncrowave 350 will smoke *** on 1/2" or more...
Basically, if you're limited to $2000, I'd reccomend a used machine that will satisfy your welding needs....rather than a new one that will let you down the first time you want to weld thicker materials

[Planet X]

Wow a week ago a bought a Lincoln Coolarc 40 water cooler, thought I got took by the Airgas sales man...$525 + tax....looks like I did alright
Funny, when I thought I was overpaying for the cooler, I reminded myself that ' folks in Cleveland like jobs too- so since welding is a luxury for me I figured 'you got to pay to play'.
Wonder where that Binzel...er Miller coolmate 3 is made....aw its cool dem folks might like jobs too

Now about that foot pedal, well looks like Lincoln has a thing for towns in Ohio, cause its made by a small company called SSC Controls in a place called Mentor. It is a quality amptrol and for what its worth it looks like non-lincoln machines can upgrade their foot pedal pretty easy .
SSC Controls


So are you saying I should have bought a Miller tig

[Engloid]

BEFORE I bought a Lincoln, I would not have been so biased towards Miller. I would have been better off to spend a little more and get the Miller...but instead, I wound up selling it after 2 years. I put about $800 on top of the money I sold it for, and bought a Miller that's probably about 8yrs old.....and am very pleased with this decision. I only wish I'd bought it before and saved myself the trouble and money.

[Planet X]

Oh, about that 'fan on demand' thing. When you strike an arc, the Lincoln machine will run the fan for a predetermined time , something like 6 minutes, whether it needs it or not.

Miller does not turn their fan on until a certain temperature is reached.

Obviously Lincoln & Miller designers have different views on the subject of Thermal runaway.

Ok, I dont earn my living by welding nor do I have a weld engineering degree, but I try not to use screw drivers for pry bars and I dont like to use combination wrenches when I really need a BFH. So why one would expect a tig welder with a 175amp max output to perform like a 350 amp one is beyond me.

150amp torch what is that a size 9 aircooled? well I like that size for gp welding, next size up is 200 amps- well they (aircooled ones) are way to big. If I need to weld something that needed a 200amp aircooled torch I would have looked into using the machines SMAW functions.

The Miller 180sd and the Lincoln PT 185 are indeed direct competitors, but cmon the Dynasty 200 price wise moves you into Syncro 250 / Pt 275 turf , if were just talking $$.


I agree with the first impression part though- the Community College machine was an older Lincoln tig- swore someday I'd have one in my garage...who knows what might have happened if it was some other color.
I also hope there will always be things different and 'better' between welding makers besides color...otherwise they will only make them cheaper not better. Watch what happens when the rest of the worlds inverts are readily available for purchase here- them 'costly' electronics will be revealed to be the cash cow they are and not the make or break a weld that they want us to think

[Mike W]

The first machine to get is easy, a basic arc welder or buzz box as they are called. After you get one, you will soon realize that you need to be able to cut metal and be able to weld thin stuff. So then comes the oxy/act rig. After that the toys start to multiply. Then you will need more space for the toys.

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by Planet X

Oh, about that 'fan on demand' thing. When you strike an arc, the Lincoln machine will run the fan for a predetermined time , something like 6 minutes, whether it needs it or not. Miller does not turn their fan on until a certain temperature is reached.

Didn't know that...don't like that...will edit above if it will still let me.

Originally Posted by Planet X

Ok, I dont earn my living by welding nor do I have a weld engineering degree, but I try not to use screw drivers for pry bars and I dont like to use combination wrenches when I really need a BFH.

But they're TOOLS, first and foremost...it's a good thing they can be mulit-functional tools

Originally Posted by Planet X

150amp torch what is that a size 9 aircooled?

It's the small one, similar to the WP20.

Originally Posted by Planet X

The Miller 180sd and the Lincoln PT 185 are indeed direct competitors, but cmon the Dynasty 200 price wise moves you into Syncro 250 / Pt 275 turf , if were just talking $$.

You're right...that's why I reccomend used machines. You can buy a used 250, 300, or 350 syncrowave for what you'll pay for a new PT or even the Miller SD180. I didn't want to spend hours doing a writeup that includes all the welding machines.
Maybe in time, I'll add to it and even put up a webpage with all of it in there.

Wow I guess I better sell my SP170t with Lincoln beeing so lousy obviously I will never get any service or parts, OOPS already 12yrs old and never needed anything yet. HMMM maybe I will keep it. Scott

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by tigman

Wow I guess I better sell my SP170t with Lincoln beeing so lousy obviously I will never get any service or parts, OOPS already 12yrs old and never needed anything yet. HMMM maybe I will keep it. Scott

If you want a Miller vs Lincoln discussion thread, why not just post in one of the several that are already made? If you want to post specs and facts comparing them, go ahead.

If you want to argue miller vs lincoln with me, that's fine also...just make the thread or point me to one...and we'll talk. I posted this thread so it can be, first and foremost, full of facts and information.

[walker]

I don't generally like the blue vs. red threads. I have used them both with a high degree of success. They are both high quality machines, and both way above the quality of the cheap chinese and HF junk. When I bought my first machine I spent the extra dough and got a MM185. It is a great machine and I am glad I got a pro quality machine instead of a cheap one. I still own it, and use it daily. When it was time for an engine drive I got a Trailblazer 251. It is a strong running welder and I have no complaints with it. When it was time for a plasma cutter I shopped around and bought a Hypertherm 600. I cost more than the no name cutters, but I have had no trouble with it. My point is that if you buy professional quality tools they will last a long time. My MM185 has been in service for more than 10 years with only minor repairs, a liner, tips, and a diffuser. The trailblazer has only had regular maintenance items, oil, air filters, etc.
I have used cheap machines, somebody elses, and had difficulty trying to do good quality welds, consumables that cannot be bought, cutters that have a 45* kerf. I have come to the conclusion that the only quality of machine worth learning on is a high quality one. On a poor machine, if you are inexperienced, you may not know if it is your technique or a bad machine that is to blame for poor welds. On a good quality one you have a much better idea.
So, buy only one tool, red or blue, and if it is a good machine then it is the last one you buy. You will learn quicker, and have higher quality results. I am not impressed with buying used equipment here in Phoenix. The prices for used are about 80% of the new prices. For that little bit of money I would rather have a warranty and piece of mind. In other places, where used is cheaper, say 50% of new, I wouldn't mind buying used, but I would stick with big names so I was sure I could buy parts.
If you don't know if you want to weld or not, take a class, borrow a welder, rent a welder, anything but don't buy one. Those things are much cheaper than a $500-$1000 paper weight sitting in the garage. I will give you my analogy on buying expensive toys. I have a 23' sailboat, here in the desert. I take it out several times a year and enjoy it. If I were to divide the purchase price by the amount of times I put it on the water and get a price per use, I would be very depressed. It would be much cheaper for me to rent one every time I went for something like 10 years. I get a lot of enjoyment from it at home though, and it is theraputic for me to work on. So its cost/value is justified. Now if I had just bought a welder for $1500 and botched a few home repairs with it before I shoved it into the corner and stacked boxes on it, it would have been cheaper to have not bought the welder and paid a competent weldor to repai my stuff for me. All of my equipment works for a living and has paid for itself many times over, nor would I buy a tool that wouldn't earn its keep. I recognize that, like my saiboat, some thing have a value greater than the price to the user.
I can see that I am ranting now, buy good tools and weld well

[Teeps]

Just wanted to say thanks to Engloid for taking the time to put this good information up here.

This really puts all the "extra factors" in perspective for me, and I'm sure for alot of beginners. I agree that it really pays to make a smart investment up front, all of these higher end machines, hold their value quite well.

I hope next fall/winter to pick up a used 200dx myself!!!! Possibly one from Aphexafx when he goes to upgrade to a 300dx.

So if it all works out, I hope to be helping him make a purchase on a machine that suits his needs better, and pick up a used machine for a good start on my projects.
Maybe one day, I'll end up selling it and doing the same! I know with a solid model in the Miller product line-up, owning one of these machines seems similar to having a piece of granite, holds its function, and its value with not a dramatic amount of depreciation in either over time.

Thanks to Engloid for his insight!

[MBDiagman]

I've had my red tomstone for eighteen years now and it has served me well. Granted, I don't use it every day, but during this time it has burned 100's of pounds of rod without a hickup. I just remembered, I was wrong, I put a new ground clamp on it a few months ago.

That said, I'm not seeing Lincoln as the premier maker when it comes to wire feed equipment. If I were to want a large engine driven welder to take into the field though, I think it would be red. I also believe if I were buying a new stick welder for the shop and didn't already have my tombstone broken in, it would be another red tombstone.

I am real close to buying a MIG welder and I'm almost certain that it will be blue.

Merry Christmas,
Doc

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by MBDiagman

I've had my red tomstone for eighteen years now and it has served me well. Granted, I don't use it every day, but during this time it has burned 100's of pounds of rod without a hickup. I just remembered, I was wrong, I put a new ground clamp on it a few months ago.

I used one in welding school...and it worked great. I don't think Lincoln makes them like they used to though.

Originally Posted by MBDiagman

That said, I'm not seeing Lincoln as the premier maker when it comes to wire feed equipment.

The MK Products (Lincoln) Python mig gun is really nice....I even got it attached to a brand new Miller 350P machine that I was loaned as a demo on one job.

[Too_Many_Tools]

A very good post....you can rant any time if this is the results.

I would also agree on the used market. My experience is that used equipment sells for much more than I am willing to spend for the potential of risk they offer. On quality machines, I too am seeing 70-85% of what I can buy a new one off Ebay delievered to my door tax free. The selection seems to be few and I suspect those who suggest buying used are those same people who know other welders who turn machines over on a regular basis. For the hobby guy who is reading the want ads looking for a welder, you have a slim chance to buy a good used welder for a reasonable price. The good buys never make the ads but are bought by those who know the welder was coming up for sale and have seen it in use daily. If you go the auction route, you will see mostly three phase machines that have been used 24/7 and are usually being sold because they need repairs...many of which are not available any more. Remember that this industry underwent a significant consolidation recently and both the repair capability and spare parts for orphaned welders is disappearing. Those who realize this are selling their old welders while they still have some value yet.

A comment on Ebay. Buying anythng used is a crap shoot. Buying an used welder on Ebay that will cost hundreds of dollars to ship is far more risk than I would take. When a welder is placed on Ebay, it is seen by hundreds if not thousands of people. Because of this, the selling price will be higher than normal. I recently watched a local ten year old Miller Syncowave 250 with known problems sell for more than a new one can be gotten direct from a number of Ebay sellers. This was before the shipping fees added in. In other words, do your homework and bid accordingly when shopping Ebay for used welders.

For my situation, I have decided to buy any future welder new and likely from Ebay sellers. The local shops are unwilling to match prices and when one factors in the added tax of buying locally, it just doesn't make any sense when I can have free shipping and no sales tax. It would seem many buyers agree. I think we are going to see a consolidation of local suppliers in the next few years which will make it very interesting to get consumables and gas locally.

Something I do not see discussed often is the cost of repairing older used welders. If you price repairs, you will find that if you can get the parts (that's right Lincoln and Miller do discontinue parts thereby obseleting their welders) you will be unpleasantly surprised by the part costs. Having a welder that parts are available for means alot when it comes to a business. A welder down makes you no money. Many businesses will have a second welder as a fallback since getting parts take time and there is a shortage of qualified repair people.

Having a warranty can mean even more...especially on an inverter based welders and plasma cutters which do cost significantly more to repair. I predict that we are going to start seeing a lot of inverter based machines hitting the used market when their warranties start running out. Businesses will have depreciated them out and without the warranty as protection from extra high repair costs, they will sell the older welder and buy a new one. I also think we are moving to the age of throwaway welders as the cost to repair inverter based welders will make them uneconomical to repair. Many of the subassemblies within these welders are potted so the technician has to replace the entire assembly when only one component fails. This is the same trend that laptops have followed...only a few components are repairable and the unit is usually cheaper to replace with a new one than to repair. I also expect Miller and Lincoln to offer extended warranties in the future like those you are offered now on consumer electronics, appliances and cars. Does anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

Your discussion of renting versus buying is one of the best I have seen. Excellent advice.


TMT

Originally Posted by walker

I don't generally like the blue vs. red threads. I have used them both with a high degree of success. They are both high quality machines, and both way above the quality of the cheap chinese and HF junk. When I bought my first machine I spent the extra dough and got a MM185. It is a great machine and I am glad I got a pro quality machine instead of a cheap one. I still own it, and use it daily. When it was time for an engine drive I got a Trailblazer 251. It is a strong running welder and I have no complaints with it. When it was time for a plasma cutter I shopped around and bought a Hypertherm 600. I cost more than the no name cutters, but I have had no trouble with it. My point is that if you buy professional quality tools they will last a long time. My MM185 has been in service for more than 10 years with only minor repairs, a liner, tips, and a diffuser. The trailblazer has only had regular maintenance items, oil, air filters, etc.
I have used cheap machines, somebody elses, and had difficulty trying to do good quality welds, consumables that cannot be bought, cutters that have a 45* kerf. I have come to the conclusion that the only quality of machine worth learning on is a high quality one. On a poor machine, if you are inexperienced, you may not know if it is your technique or a bad machine that is to blame for poor welds. On a good quality one you have a much better idea.
So, buy only one tool, red or blue, and if it is a good machine then it is the last one you buy. You will learn quicker, and have higher quality results. I am not impressed with buying used equipment here in Phoenix. The prices for used are about 80% of the new prices. For that little bit of money I would rather have a warranty and piece of mind. In other places, where used is cheaper, say 50% of new, I wouldn't mind buying used, but I would stick with big names so I was sure I could buy parts.
If you don't know if you want to weld or not, take a class, borrow a welder, rent a welder, anything but don't buy one. Those things are much cheaper than a $500-$1000 paper weight sitting in the garage. I will give you my analogy on buying expensive toys. I have a 23' sailboat, here in the desert. I take it out several times a year and enjoy it. If I were to divide the purchase price by the amount of times I put it on the water and get a price per use, I would be very depressed. It would be much cheaper for me to rent one every time I went for something like 10 years. I get a lot of enjoyment from it at home though, and it is theraputic for me to work on. So its cost/value is justified. Now if I had just bought a welder for $1500 and botched a few home repairs with it before I shoved it into the corner and stacked boxes on it, it would have been cheaper to have not bought the welder and paid a competent weldor to repai my stuff for me. All of my equipment works for a living and has paid for itself many times over, nor would I buy a tool that wouldn't earn its keep. I recognize that, like my saiboat, some thing have a value greater than the price to the user.
I can see that I am ranting now, buy good tools and weld well

[disk_drive_eng]

Walker and Too Many Tools

Being a newbie and having bought new, I have often felt stupid when I read posts about the cheap but great used machine someone just got. But I could never find those deals, and wanted to get on with learning welding, not welder shopping and welder repair anyway.

Its a relief to find that I wasn't so dumb after all. Thanks for the posts.