running a 100 amp service... 101 ???

[Teeps]

Feel free to just quote, and respond directly to the 8 millions questions below
Thanks in advance for your insight!!!!

I'm planning on getting a permit to run a 100 amp service from my box (after the meter) to my detached garage. I will have an electrician (relative) inspect it when all is done.

I have a distribution box outside behind my house, which is next to my meter also outside.

This is what I have gleamed so far.

To run power from the back wall of my house, to my garage (probably about 20-30 feet at most)I need to use direct burial cable, and bury it about 24" deep. (although I need to verify local regulation first)

And of course I will use a breaker box in the garage, with one dedicated 50 amp circuit for an mm251 and eventually a 200dx, the rest will be split up into another 220 volt circuit, and a few 110 volt connections.
I'm thinking I will also install another breaker box near the main feed at the back wall of the house, since it will be easier to tap into the two opposing 110 volt power wires before the exhisting breakers(more than likely), I'm not sure exactly how I will be able to make thise large cable to cable attachments, I'll probably have to buy some special wire attachments. Thanks for any insight or tricks of the trade on makething these connections.
In case some morron were to dig and short out the wire (like me, haha), I figure I better mount another breaker at the back wall of the house for this circuit.

So my question is, how do I insure I'm getting 220 volts, and 100amp to the garage?
Other than running a thick enough cable from the house to the garage, and breakers with large enough capacity on both ends? should I then indeed have 100 amps, or is their more to do.

I'm thinking of going a little overkill on the burial wire, and going with some pretty thick stuff. Then again, I could just used two seperate 220 volt circuits between the house and the garage. Two sets of three wires, for example 4 guage burial wire, 6 cables.
4 cables running 110 volts each, and 2 neutral cables. Do the grounds have to be run as well? Or should I just use an earth ground attached to the garage? (I'll probably do that)

What if the wire between my meter and the pole is not thick enough to provide proper amperage?

What if the wire between my box and the meter is too thin? (I haven't looked, would I be able to change this?)

Will I have to pay the power company to upgrade their service lines?

Anything else I should be considering, or extra steps to take?

Do the meters typically have an amperage rating / capacity? I may go with a lower amperage to avoid the need of renting two seperate meters (depending on cost) from the power company.

Thanks in advance,

Don

[MigManiac]

Tell me if i got this right.
you want to run a 100 amp service to your garage from your existing main panel in your house?
Is your main service panel a 200A service?[ should be at least a #2 from your meter to your box ] to check this just look at the main disconnect in your panel in your house?If it's not a 200A service you'll need to upgrade first.
I would use that pvc type conduit the whole run from house to garage,but thats just me,and use at least a #4 wire {copper} for the power leads and use a #6 for the ground and neutral. I would get a 100A rated box for the garage with seperate Neutral and grounding buses and pound in a new grounding rod out side the garage for your new box.
Alot of people just use conduit going into and comming out of the ground when using direct burial cable.
I dont quiet understand what you meen by TAPPING INTO 110V LINES BEFORE THE BREAKER.
Here is a good site that covers what you are talking about.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...rage/index.htm

If all else fails Hire an electrician!

[Sberry]

I agree,, this sounds less than well thought out. Not safe or legal, no how, no way. It must be fed from a breaker in your main panel, there is another way to do it but beyond this forum. No seperate lines to the garage either, only one set of feeds allowed.

[ohmthis]

Teeps,
Can you get your electrician relative to plan/design your project? Are you wanting a whole new service or a subpanel off your main panel? How far away is your garage from your house? Hope we can help.

[Teeps]

Ok, well I should haad a second look at things before I posted, sorry for any confusion.
Last time I really looked at any of the wiring was last summer for the A/C install.

Sberry, your right, I'm just in the planning stages at this point, I'm not pulling the trigger on anything at this juncture.


I'm not doing anything until I have mapped out the entire circuit, with specs on everything, budgeted and bought everything ahead of time.
I will not even go apply for a permit until the whole plan is mapped out.

I mistakenly remembered my meter as being another panel at the back of my house. So my main panel is actually in my basement.

What I have right now: (all connections are, and will be downstream from the meter of course).
A main feed going from my meter to the basement, and a large panel there.
All power is branched off of this main breaker box (including current wiring to the garage), except for the A/C unit.

When I installed my central air heat exchanger outside, I had a friend, who is certified to install these systems, (install them for 60-80 hrs per week) finish the installation with me. Since he has all the special equipment, he evac/fill'd the lines for the coolant, and he also hooked up the electrical, and got me a electric pump with a sump to drain condensation to a sink drain.

He installed an outdoor disconnect box, which is basically a big plastic(insulated) handle with two fuses behind it, the fuses of course are wired between the meter and the Air conditioner.

So he used a spare set of lugs on the meter to feed power to the out-door A/C unit.

So Sberry, this is illegal? Seriously, I'm asking.

Thanks for all your insight guys, I sincerely appreciate it.

BTW, it looks like there is no way I'm going to be able to feed enough current to my house and garage, etc, etc.

The cable that comes from the pole, to the meter, is suspended in the air, and it is maybe 1/4" O.D. counting some thin insulation.

I'm not sure what guage .25" wire is, but I'm guess that size wire cannot carry the 200-300amp I'm after for the whole property. I mean if I had to guess, that wire is probably 4 guage at the absolute thickest. There is now way that wire can support anything more than 100amps for the whole dam property.

I just looked at the meter and all the lugs are used up.

My plan was to use the A/C circuit (from the meter to the A/C unit), enlarge this wiring to 200 amp size (Service entrance 2/0 2/0 2/0 2/0), then put a large enough out-door breaker to cover the amperage for the A/C unit, and the 100amp I want to the garage (never more than the wiring can support). So then I'll also be running the garage off the A/C breaker, which is going to cost some major bux to buy a large amperage out-door breaker.

I want to check to see if there is any particular reason why he used large fuses, instead of a breaker, and if breakers can be used instead (I can still wire the disconnect after the breaker for the A/C.

Then I was going to run service entrance (aluminum 2 2 2 2) from this outdoor breaker at the house, through conduit 2 feet under the ground, to the garage for a 100 amp service breaker/sub panel.

So does any of that sould legal, or illegal, or completely wrong? heh.

By the way, I recommend that NO-ONE EVER open their meter box. I know what can happen, and I don't want to read about it in the paper. It is no laughing matter, do not ever open that box, let an electrician do this.

Having said this, I think I have to call the power company now.
Because I don't think the power lines from the pole are large enough to support the amperage I will need.

Having said that, there is a dual purpose to this. I don't think suspended power lines are still legal here, and the power lines that are currently going to my detached garage are suspended.

Back when they were installed, it must have still been legal. So the power goes from the pole, to the meter, to the basement, then back out the wall, back up to the top of the outside wall and through the air tied "tight" to the garage like closelines, three wires.

So this old-code wiring is going to be deleted and all new stuff will be installed underground.

I consider this a danger because I have a huge tree in the back year, with limbs way up high, and branches are always falling down during storms. I don't want live wires dangling around back there, and yes I have kept the tree trimmed. I trimmed it myself just this fall.

Oh, btw, I just checked out the breaker in the basement, and it is only 100amp according to the label inside the housing.

Ok,

Thanks again for your insight, especially just for proper planning, above all else.
I will probably have my uncle (electrician) come over to complete the install with me, if it turns out to be feasible.

I'm not going to waste his time, until I have everything figured out, and all supplies on hand however. And sometimes I like to make my own decisions and go a little overkill on the wiring thickness, which I'm sure my uncle is going to laugh about, lol.
Mostly to allow flexibility down the road.

If anybody is interested, I'll update on what the power company says.

Thanks again,

-Don

[Teeps]

Teeps,
Can you get your electrician relative to plan/design your project? Are you wanting a whole new service or a subpanel off your main panel? How far away is your garage from your house? Hope we can help.

Yeah, I may have him help me finish this up some time, or bring the plan to him for his review. He lives about 2-3 hours from me, so it's not really convenient anytime soon.

I just measured, and the garage is 27 feet from the house, I was just going to run an outside breaker, off the meter, and run a sub panel in the garage.

I don't know if that is legal, that's basically how my outside A/C condensor/compressor/heat exchanger was installed.

Thanks,

Don

[Old Man Stick]

Not sure on how the power company your way works. here. You can not really ask for a upgrade on your power. Thay do not count a welder as a major appliance. But thats here not there.

In order to do this job right is going to be a lot of work. There are two way I can see doing this. One ( I dont recommend here power company moves slow here. ) would have the PC come put and unhook your drop. Then you will have to remove your old mast and weather head off the house and install your new one. IN this time you will have to change out your pannel to a 200 AMP unit .. Oh yea and a new Meter base s your old one is only good for 100 amps. Then once you have your new stuff in have the PC ( Power company ) come out and thay will inspect before hooking you back up . Then you can install your wire out to the shop.. or hook it up What ever.

The way that we do it here. is go in. Install a new service beside the old one. Weather head, mast, meter base and all. Install your new pannel. In the new pannel put one 100 amp 220 breaker. and put one 100 amp 220 braker in your old pannel useing a jumper between the two so that once the PC gets there you can turn your house and all back on off the new pannel then move your stuff over to the new one. ..... Or check wiht your local zoneing laws and see some places will let you pretty much change that old pannel in to a subpannel then you just need to unstall a 100 breaker and wire it to your old one then bring the new wire form the shop to the new pannel and be done. but some places will NOT let you use a main for a subpannel.

If you put a outdoor unit at the meter base it would save you a lot of work but will cost a good amount. well both ways is going to get pricey there. You should try to talk with someone local that knows your codes better. Thay will be able to show you face to face of just what needs to be done.

And oh yea as far as your wire from the pole to the house goes.... 9 time out of 10 its under size here. and Mostly Al to boot! The great CEI here dont worry ... and I quote " no worries if you burn this up we will come back and replace with bigger but trust me you will be fine " Oh Yea I just love dealing with the boys in the bucket trucks ! LOL

Did a Lot of 60 AMP fuse to 100 AMp Breaker changes here over the last 12 Years. Been pretty dead on that thoe ... THink thay all got done! LOL

Best of Luck ! Keep us updated on what all ya find out.

[Teeps]

I can't see how that wiring to the pole even stays intact with the amperage I'm already using.

Fridge, Water heater, furnace, Washer, dryer, dishwasher, two tv's, 3-4 computers, air compressor, welder 115 volt.

Sometimes all running at the same time!!!!
And an A/C unit in the summer!!!

I doubt my welder has ever really had all the current it needs to run properly, what a bummer.

I don't have a problem with alot of work, but this is also going to be very expensive.

Thanks for your advice.

-Don

[Sberry]

Here is what I would likely do, install an outdoor new main entrance panel with meter base, mast, all of it. SQD makes a 200A main breaker, 8 space with feed thru. After the inspection I would call the PoCo and have them heat the new panel and feed thru to your panel in the basement making it a sub, you will have to add a grounding conductor, 4 wire feed to it, add equipment ground bar and seperate the N and G's. It would leave you 8 spaces outdoors, 2 for your AC and you could feed your garage with 2 of them.

[Teeps]

So I take it the benefit of installing a new meter base, is just being able to plug and play when the power company shows up. [edit... (oh, it's probably only rated to 100 amps as well)]

I was looking at the all-in-one meter base, and breaker boxes at sqd's website, holy cow, prices in the 1000-3000.00 range.
WTF?!

Considering this is all in an effort to setup for an mm251, and one day I may need a generator, a Trailblazer is looking like a bargain setup in comparison to all this, haha.
Although gas prices are on the rise

I'll have to hunt around for some better prices,

I think the out-door service entrance / breaker is a great idea, turning the basement into a sub box, seems like the most efficient option.

Maybe I can find a second hand meter base somewhere too.

Thanks again for your insight,

Don

[toolaholic]

it's obvious to us you have no buss. doing this ! i'm a licenced gen. con. and i don't have the time to point out what's wrong. use conduit! hire an elec. and make the money doing what you're good at. what would your family do without you.? and this isn't about us loosing work! it's about your familys loss

[ohmthis]

Teeps,
Have you thought about Just adding a seperate service next to your existing one. You could build it mast, meter base to a service disconnect, then run your feed to the garage underground to your panel in the garage. It can be done here, just a thought. A call to the POCO would give the ok on this. You could have 100A to the garage, underground and not have to go through the hassel of maybe going without power to your house.

[Teeps]

i don't have the time to point out what's wrong.

Point taken, but then why take the time to post?
Good Luck with your VAN!!!!

[Teeps]

Teeps,
Have you thought about Just adding a seperate service next to your existing one. You could build it mast, meter base to a service disconnect, then run your feed to the garage underground to your panel in the garage. It can be done here, just a thought. A call to the POCO would give the ok on this. You could have 100A to the garage, underground and not have to go through the hassel of maybe going without power to your house.

Ohmthis,
Thanks, you guys are what makes this forum great.
That might be about the same cost to just add another service and leave them both up, I'll ask the Poco about the ins and outs of this.
Thanks for your insight on "planning" this.

-Don

[Terry Lingle]

only one power drop on a property is normally permitted for safety reasons Terry