MM210 or PowerMig 215 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

[bayrunner]

Hey Guys _____ After some research and digging around, I finally narrowed my choice down to two machines, the Millermatic 210,or the Lincoln Power Mig 215. It seem that for my needs (auto fab., bumpers, sliders ,cages and some aluminum down the line )these seem to fit the bill, also I don’t want to get a machine that’s not powerful enough then regret it down the road. So, what do you think?????? WHICH ONE ????????????_____ THANKS BAYRUNNER

[Brand X]

Hey Guys _____ After some research and digging around, I finally narrowed my choice down to two machines, the Millermatic 210,or the Lincoln Power Mig 215. It seem that for my needs (auto fab., bumpers, sliders ,cages and some aluminum down the line )these seem to fit the bill, also I don’t want to get a machine that’s not powerful enough then regret it down the road. So, what do you think?????? WHICH ONE ????????????_____ THANKS BAYRUNNER

Since you said aluminum, I would say the Miller 210. It is already setup for a spoolgun and setup pretty nice at that. The Lincoln is about $50.00 more to boot. I would still weld with both if you could. That really is the best way, over listening to everybodys opinion. Either way you will not get hurt on the deal.

[Dan]

I don t think we've had anyone on here yet, who has the PM 215. So your probably mainly going to get feedback on the MM 210.I will say that i ve never heard any negative feedback on the MM 210. Ive had my 210 for 2+ years now and have been pleased with its performance.

Don't be fooled by Lincolns advertising hype that the 215 is a 250 amp unit. At 215 amps the units dutyscycle is 30%. So, by the time you reach 250 amps, the unit can t have much more then a 10% duty cycle if it's lucky. Also, based on the volt/amp curve that Lincoln supplied me with on the unit, at 250 amps the voltage is going to be to low to run a solid wire properly.At 250 amps on PM 215 you'd have to run a self- shielded fluxcore.

You know, in the end if your just looking for a unit to short arc with using C-25, you probably can t go wrong with either unit. Personally though, I like to have a unit that will short arc and spray arc. Once again strictly based on the PM 215 chart provided to me by Lincoln, the 215 is a little short on the voltage required to spray arc at around the 200 to 210 amp range - 1/4" steel.

As far as aluminum goes, 1/8" and thinner is a lot easier to weld with TIG then MIG

BTW, if you want to make sure you'll never out grow the unit, step up to the 250+ amp class of Miller, Lincoln,ESAB,or TA

[cope]

For price, user feedback and "it just feels right", I went with the MM210. As Dan said, we hear from a lot of Lincoln 135/175 owners but not much about the 215/250 machines.

[klsm54]

I agree with Brand X's reasoning. The Miller is the best bet for aluminum applications. Direct plug in of a spool gun.

[ventureline]

Being A Lincoln Tech, I'd have to go with the Miller 210 if I fhad to choose. Though both of these units are a little on the bland side, and I'd suggest you try to save up for a 250 amp+ machine. Too many customers get somewhat disatisfied with a "fits my purpose now" machine.

ESAB 260's are really nice, built well, and not too pricey, and want to run aluminum, opt for the kit, but not the gun as with a bit of tweaking the miller' 30 units plug right in to all Lincolns, ESABS, and others with the mk spoolgun kit.

[Dan]

Being A Lincoln Tech, I'd have to go with the Miller 210 if I fhad to choose. Though both of these units are a little on the bland side, and I'd suggest you try to save up for a 250 amp+ machine. Too many customers get somewhat disatisfied with a "fits my purpose now" machine.

ESAB 260's are really nice, built well, and not too pricey, and want to run aluminum, opt for the kit, but not the gun as with a bit of tweaking the miller' 30 units plug right in to all Lincolns, ESABS, and others with the mk spoolgun kit.

Ventureline,

Can you provide some feedback on why you'd go with the 210 over the 215?

[TRG-42]

For a real world comparison we can look at Millers Comparions Sheet to the Power Mig ( its on their web site ). BTW the comparison is to the Power Mig 200 which has been long replaced by the PM215

1. Power Rating - splitting hairs here because most users who buy these won't notice the extra 10 amps claimed by Lincoln ( 170 @ 24V @ 60% ) . Load banked both these machines ( like a dynometer for welders ). Pretty well the same

2. SPOOL GUN READY - its not as convenient to flip a switch on the PM215. The module comes with the gun and takes 10 min to put in . Not as difficult as the comparison makes it sound. The SG however is way better than the 3035 . First it can handle 3/64 dia wire. Keep in mind that .035 is a very small size when it comes to aluminum. 150 amps is actually the middle of the operating range for a 3/64 . Also the spool gun is rated for 100 amps more than the 3035 .

Toss up whether to put up with having to throw a switch vs beefier gun.

3. SPOOL GUN PERFORMANCE - see above. Millers comparison claims fair amount of burnback. Funny thing is the Lincoln gun is a proven gun made by CK that has been marketed by many companies ( including Hobart in the past ) . See note below regarding pushing aluminum wire

4. Manufacturing Location - the first PM were made in Mexico. This is not true anymore

5. Gun On Demand - see above. Advantage Millermatic

6 Built in Dual Gun Holder - Millers is built in. Lincolns comes with the spool gun

7 Removable Consumable Tray - Lincolns is fastened to the machine

8 Tool Less Quick Change - Millers comparison is incorrect . Lincolns don't have to be pried off. Only the first generation PM200 ( 3 years ago )

9 Wire Speed - Millers comparions says they have a wider range 35 -700 vs Lincolns 50-700 . So what ! In the real world who the **** ever runs the wire that even 50 ipm !!

Since we are talking wire speed this is one of the biggest advantages of the PM215 . The PM wire drive has a tachometer feedback. Once you set the speed, as the drive system sees more drag ( in the liner, the spool etc ) and the wire drive sees the speed drop via the tachometer ( counts the RPMs ) and increases the power into the drive to compensate ...like a cruise control in a car

FACT - tachometer feedback on a wire drive always gives more consistent WFS . Higher end industrial wire drives ( Miller and Lincoln etc ) use a tachometer feedback. You seldom see it in "lesser " machines

FACT - the Power Migs WFS is calibrated in WFS. This may not make any difference to some people but all welding wires ( flux cored , MIG ) have a suggested procedure sheet that has give the wire feed speed. *** inches per minite is the same on all machines that have a calibrated WFS. Its harder to corrolate a 10 to 100 or 1 to 10 WFS from machine to machine. Can't really have a calibrated WFS if you don't have a tachometer feedback

FACT - Miller says the 210s drive is good for .035 solid or .045 cored . The PM215's is the same drive as the PM255, so it has the ***** to feed .045 solid and 1/16 cored. You may never need the extra power but its there

FACT - the split guide plate system in the PM is a better design than the conventional guide tube system the Millermatics use . Ingoing and outgoing tubes are perfectly line up because they are the same piece ! It also allows a much closer "fit" around the drive rolls to minimize tendance to birds nest

Pushing Aluminum Wire

The PM has an optional aluminum feeding kit that has special drive rolls , nylon guide plates, liners and tips. This system is not perfect ( only good for 3/64 dia ER 5356 ) but actually works suprisingly well ! Many people use this as a intermediate step instead of spending the money for a spool gun. Lots of people never end up buying the spool gun because the "aluminumpush" system in PM actually works good. Pushing aluminum out of the MM drive system is much more problematic. The guide plate system in the PM is the key

Obviously this doesn't matter if you have the $ for a spool gun



10 - Reversible drive rolls - You have to install a different set on the Lincoln and it only comes with .035 . Millers can go between .030 and .035 with a flip which is nice

11 - Color Parameter Chart - I guess this would be an advantage over the PM215's black and white chart for some people

12 - Smith Regulator - the Smith regulator seem nicer than the Harris on the PM . Both do the job. Neither one could be considered industrial quality though


NOT MENTIONED IN MILLLER COMPARISON

1 - the inductor ( "diamond core" ) in the PM family essentially give a variable inductance. What does this mean in the real world. Where the PM has an advantage is low voltage ( especially with CO2 ) procedures and excessively long stick out . Weld with both machines at .035 short arc procedures. Pull the gun back on both. It is suprising how the PM can tolerate long stick out or lower voltage procedures before it starts stubbing the wire

If you are going to weld with both side by side short arc is where you will see the difference. On higher procedures like spray welding ( MIG , flux cored ) the differences are less noticable

Bottom line is both machines are great for arc characteristics

2. The contactor ( the thunk you hear when you pull the trigger - it makes the wire electrically live - essentially a big *** relay ) on the PM is a real welding contactor ( like the one in the LN-25 ) The Millermatic 215 uses a primary input ( the contactor that ususally puts electrical power from the wall into the machine ) contactor to do this. Because this contactor is made to switch much lower amps ( wall power amps not welding amps ) they gang up the 3 poles of the contactor together . It's like using 3 chains ganged together to lift a load that exeeds the capacity of one of the chains. It works but its obviously a cost saving step.

This may or may not effect reliability but you would think Miller would use a "real" welding contactor like the ones in their 12VS feeders

3. Power Mig 215s now have 115 volt power receptacles. Kinda handy for gridners and lights



BOTTOM LINE

I have never heard a purchaser of either machine being unhappy with it ( other than lack of power ). Both are good machines. Its really like the Ford Chevy debate

Just take everyones comparions sheets with a grain of salt. Doens't necessarily tell you the whole story

As someone mentioned already both machines are easy to outgrow. It better to save your pennies and step up to the MM251 or PM255 . They are waaaay more machine than the MM210 / PM215

Hope this helps

[Dan]

For a real world comparison we can look at Millers Comparions Sheet to the Power Mig ( its on their web site ). BTW the comparison is to the Power Mig 200 which has been long replaced by the PM215

1. Power Rating - splitting hairs here because most users who buy these won't notice the extra 10 amps claimed by Lincoln ( 170 @ 24V @ 60% ) . Load banked both these machines ( like a dynometer for welders ). Pretty well the same

2. SPOOL GUN READY - its not as convenient to flip a switch on the PM215. The module comes with the gun and takes 10 min to put in . Not as difficult as the comparison makes it sound. The SG however is way better than the 3035 . First it can handle 3/64 dia wire. Keep in mind that .035 is a very small size when it comes to aluminum. 150 amps is actually the middle of the operating range for a 3/64 . Also the spool gun is rated for 100 amps more than the 3035 .

Toss up whether to put up with having to throw a switch vs beefier gun.

3. SPOOL GUN PERFORMANCE - see above. Millers comparison claims fair amount of burnback. Funny thing is the Lincoln gun is a proven gun made by CK that has been marketed by many companies ( including Hobart in the past ) . See note below regarding pushing aluminum wire

4. Manufacturing Location - the first PM were made in Mexico. This is not true anymore

5. Gun On Demand - see above. Advantage Millermatic

6 Built in Dual Gun Holder - Millers is built in. Lincolns comes with the spool gun

7 Removable Consumable Tray - Lincolns is fastened to the machine

8 Tool Less Quick Change - Millers comparison is incorrect . Lincolns don't have to be pried off. Only the first generation PM200 ( 3 years ago )

9 Wire Speed - Millers comparions says they have a wider range 35 -700 vs Lincolns 50-700 . So what ! In the real world who the **** ever runs the wire that even 50 ipm !!

Since we are talking wire speed this is one of the biggest advantages of the PM215 . The PM wire drive has a tachometer feedback. Once you set the speed, as the drive system sees more drag ( in the liner, the spool etc ) and the wire drive sees the speed drop via the tachometer ( counts the RPMs ) and increases the power into the drive to compensate ...like a cruise control in a car

FACT - tachometer feedback on a wire drive always gives more consistent WFS . Higher end industrial wire drives ( Miller and Lincoln etc ) use a tachometer feedback. You seldom see it in "lesser " machines

FACT - the Power Migs WFS is calibrated in WFS. This may not make any difference to some people but all welding wires ( flux cored , MIG ) have a suggested procedure sheet that has give the wire feed speed. *** inches per minite is the same on all machines that have a calibrated WFS. Its harder to corrolate a 10 to 100 or 1 to 10 WFS from machine to machine. Can't really have a calibrated WFS if you don't have a tachometer feedback

FACT - Miller says the 210s drive is good for .035 solid or .045 cored . The PM215's is the same drive as the PM255, so it has the ***** to feed .045 solid and 1/16 cored. You may never need the extra power but its there

FACT - the split guide plate system in the PM is a better design than the conventional guide tube system the Millermatics use . Ingoing and outgoing tubes are perfectly line up because they are the same piece ! It also allows a much closer "fit" around the drive rolls to minimize tendance to birds nest

Pushing Aluminum Wire

The PM has an optional aluminum feeding kit that has special drive rolls , nylon guide plates, liners and tips. This system is not perfect ( only good for 3/64 dia ER 5356 ) but actually works suprisingly well ! Many people use this as a intermediate step instead of spending the money for a spool gun. Lots of people never end up buying the spool gun because the "aluminumpush" system in PM actually works good. Pushing aluminum out of the MM drive system is much more problematic. The guide plate system in the PM is the key

Obviously this doesn't matter if you have the $ for a spool gun



10 - Reversible drive rolls - You have to install a different set on the Lincoln and it only comes with .035 . Millers can go between .030 and .035 with a flip which is nice

11 - Color Parameter Chart - I guess this would be an advantage over the PM215's black and white chart for some people

12 - Smith Regulator - the Smith regulator seem nicer than the Harris on the PM . Both do the job. Neither one could be considered industrial quality though


NOT MENTIONED IN MILLLER COMPARISON

1 - the inductor ( "diamond core" ) in the PM family essentially give a variable inductance. What does this mean in the real world. Where the PM has an advantage is low voltage ( especially with CO2 ) procedures and excessively long stick out . Weld with both machines at .035 short arc procedures. Pull the gun back on both. It is suprising how the PM can tolerate long stick out or lower voltage procedures before it starts stubbing the wire

If you are going to weld with both side by side short arc is where you will see the difference. On higher procedures like spray welding ( MIG , flux cored ) the differences are less noticable

Bottom line is both machines are great for arc characteristics

2. The contactor ( the thunk you hear when you pull the trigger - it makes the wire electrically live - essentially a big *** relay ) on the PM is a real welding contactor ( like the one in the LN-25 ) The Millermatic 215 uses a primary input ( the contactor that ususally puts electrical power from the wall into the machine ) contactor to do this. Because this contactor is made to switch much lower amps ( wall power amps not welding amps ) they gang up the 3 poles of the contactor together . It's like using 3 chains ganged together to lift a load that exeeds the capacity of one of the chains. It works but its obviously a cost saving step.

This may or may not effect reliability but you would think Miller would use a "real" welding contactor like the ones in their 12VS feeders

3. Power Mig 215s now have 115 volt power receptacles. Kinda handy for gridners and lights



BOTTOM LINE

I have never heard a purchaser of either machine being unhappy with it ( other than lack of power ). Both are good machines. Its really like the Ford Chevy debate

Just take everyones comparions sheets with a grain of salt. Doens't necessarily tell you the whole story

As someone mentioned already both machines are easy to outgrow. It better to save your pennies and step up to the MM251 or PM255 . They are waaaay more machine than the MM210 / PM215

Hope this helps

Ken,

Excellent feedback! With that kind of information i almost want to sell my MM 210 and get the PM 215 instead. If I make it to the welding supply store today, and they have that PM 215 hooked up in the test room, i'm definitely going to give it a test drive to see if it out performs the MM 210 in short circuit transfer mode. However, last time I went in there they also had a PM 255 in stock, which im actually more interested in test driving. If the PM 255 is hooked up and i like it, I might just have to sell my MM 210 and lowly Econotig that is becoming a dust collector in the corner since i purchased the Maxstar 150 STH.

[bayrunner]

W O W ________ Well I asked for it and I got it _______ Hey TRG-42 that was a great comparison ,I couldn’t of asked for anything more, I thank you also Dan. It looks like its getting to be decision time.________THANKS BAYRUNNER

[big rig guy]

I've had the PM 200 with spool gun now for over three years, run it in my shop, alot of aluminum welding on dump trailers and trucks, relining floors and wall. 8 foot beads, 50 hours of welding 1/4 and 3/16 thick. 30-40 one pound rolls of wire and up to 5 bottles of argon over a solid week of welding. Never overheated nor shut down.

So I cannot complain and have only good things to say about the Lincolns performance and durability.

About the only thing I have heard negative about Lincoln is the service support system, but I have not needed them, so I cannot comment.

Installing the spool gun kit took about 2o minutes three years ago, I don't see the problem there. There is a switch inside the wire compartment, that works okay for me. The storage compartment I do not use.

The holder that comes with the spool gun, I removed it from my machine and built my own.

The bottle holder I made myself as well.

I have run .030 wire in the spool gun on lighter material and gotten good results.

[cope]

I've had the PM 200 with spool gun now for over three years, run it in my shop, alot of aluminum welding on dump trailers and trucks, relining floors and wall. 8 foot beads, 50 hours of welding 1/4 and 3/16 thick. 30-40 one pound rolls of wire and up to 5 bottles of argon over a solid week of welding. Never overheated nor shut down.

So I cannot complain and have only good things to say about the Lincolns performance and durability.

About the only thing I have heard negative about Lincoln is the service support system, but I have not needed them, so I cannot comment.

Installing the spool gun kit took about 2o minutes three years ago, I don't see the problem there. There is a switch inside the wire compartment, that works okay for me. The storage compartment I do not use.

The holder that comes with the spool gun, I removed it from my machine and built my own.

The bottle holder I made myself as well.

I have run .030 wire in the spool gun on lighter material and gotten good results.

If I had bought Lincoln I probably would have been as happy as you are. I don't have a problem with lincoln quality but I have heard stories about less than excellent customer service.

I do like the tools storage area in the Lincolns; I like to keep basic stuff with each welder so I don't have to go hunt for it.

[Sundown]

When I purchased my MM210 I was able to test the MM210 and the PM215 back to back. As I do most work with 1/8" and like to use C25 and .030 wire I had them set up both machines the same. I have to say that after about 20 minutes with each I did think the arc on the MM210 was a bit softer and I liked it better, but could have lived with the PM215 with no problem. As far as warrenty work that was not an issue for me as the dealer provides onsite for both makes. One thing I wanted was the spoolgun setup for the miller, the Lincoln add on [even though it is no big deal to install seemed to be an afterthought, and why should I have to throw a switch when I don't have to, better to just pull the trigger on whichever gun I want to use. Cost was not a factor as he offered either one for the same price. In the end it's just what you want to spend your money on as I have heard no compliants from owners of either unit. Finally, for all you power mad weldors , let me say that I do not need a MM251 or a PM 255 [I wouldn't mind a spectrum 375 though], I am very happy with what I have.

[RCH]

For a real world comparison we can look at Millers Comparions Sheet to the Power Mig ( its on their web site ). BTW the comparison is to the Power Mig 200 which has been long replaced by the PM215

Class act, TRG-42