Welding Aluminum Boat?

[Roger]

Here are some Lincoln Electric links dealing with subject.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...comistakes.asp
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ture/c8100.pdf
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...ntent/alum.asp
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ture/c4200.pdf
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...nt/alumfaq.asp

[peter94]

Wow,

Thanks for the links guys. I was searching the other night to find some good sources on aluminum material properties and was not able to find anything as detailed as this.

Should I suspect that the aluminum used on this boat is of the 5XXX series for its superior corrosion resistance? Is there any way to tell?

If this is the case, from the reading I take 4043 to be the appropriate filler to use in this application because it is less likely to crack, and less prone to porosity.

From the reading I already see a few reasons why my machine is not well suited for this,like the arc decay so you do not get craters at the end of your welds.

Time to continue reading, thanks again!

[epjohnso]

The links do provide some helpful information on the questions I had about this project, specifically the type of aluminum and welding it. Trying to put all that information into a response on this BLOG would definitely take to long.
I also see the frustration peter94 has, with the answers given. Unfortunately, I look in the reflection of those answers and sadly see myself on some occasions - not in welding aluminum but in my field of expertise as an IT consultant I've provided answers, curt and to the point. Basically which is the same as the responses here: "Don't do that, you don't understand the technology and trying to explain it to you won't help because you don't understand the fundamentals"! We know every answer will generate another question or more, returns us to the original response and following this path will only lead to more frustration and confusion.

None of us will be satisfied with a Don't or NO answer. The best advice given here, and anywhere is, get some samples, try it yourself. Once you feel comfortable doing satisfactory welds( in this case, a weld that is watertight) on a 2x5 coupon of aluminum of the same material and gauge, go find some scraps of another aluminum boat and gain the experience of that material. In some ways, it appears the boat discussed here is close to that level - and could be considered a throwaway. As you say, if you mess up, and you haul it to the scrap yard and get $.52 a pound for the boat scrap, you still have the functional trailer. Some would say you need it, because that's what you'll have when you've attempted this

Think about the 4-5 year old child, who asks their parent, Why? We know 'Because', isn't an answer. Did your child stop asking you questions because you couldn't give a satisfactory answer?

[drizler]

**** that looks like an awfully nice boat to ruin tryin to figure out how to fix a few small repairs. Take a hint from an old movie line where Clint Eastwood said "A mans gotta know his limitations". When a Professional who welds boats for a living, with no dog in the race either way tells you it's best to get help it's a very good idea to listen. That seems like pretty sound advice to me

[rogrrr]

Peter

I’ve been reading this thread since the beginning (and laughing, too. This has been better than SIMPSONs or FAMILY GUY or even ALL IN THE FAMILY) and just had to interject some (contaminated) aluminum filler here

What you have on this board is a bunch of CRUSTY OL’ *******S who, individually, have forgotten know more that you will EVER know.

Case in point – you have a mig welder. ROCKY made some kind of comment like : Aluminum MIG is usually reserved for thicker

Case in point – you have a boat with holes

Case in point – you have a boat with THIN skin

Case in point – you have a THIN SKIN

Case in point – you have NO EXPERIENCE

Case in point - again – you have NO EXPERIENCE

Case in point – you took GOOD advice as an insult to your intelligence

BCUZ you have NO EXPERIENCE


I have no idea how old you are but I’d guess you to be WELL under 30 so your worldly opinion is that nobody else knows sh8. Thank you very much....

You have a boat that you will obviously SINK lots of time and perspiration into. Then you will launch it.

When you launch it you will find that you are wishing you had gone to the local vocational school and taken a BEGINNER aluminum welding course during which the instructor starts out by saying this :
To weld aluminum, YOU NEED A TIG WELDER !

As ROCKY said - MIG is usually reserved for thicker Aluminum

So bottom line here

STEP 1
is to buy the boat and take it out and SINK it. Now you have the trailer of your dreams.

STEP 2
Buy a TIG welder

STEP 3
Take a welding course and start to (or should I say – TRY to) learn something

STEP 4
Take a DALE CARNEGIE course and learn how to take advice and NOT INSULT PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO GIVE YOU THE ADVICE YOU ASKED FOR in the first place.

STEP 5
Get a CB radio and learn how to say TEN-FOUR on channel 19

STEP 6
Buy a new boat that will not sink

[rogrrr]

I just HAD to say that....

[mcostello]

One thing us less experienced guys need to remember is that the pro's make everything look easy, catch a football or baseball with one hand on the fly, amazing golf shots etc., We tend to forget the amount of training time it takes to be that good. Been around several good TIG welders, thought I would pick it up after lunch and be proficient b4 supper. Am now on 2nd 336 tank of Argon and beads just starting to look like something that a cat DID NOT throw up. Back to more seat time........

[yorkiepap]

Hey guys,
First, looks like Peter is doing some homework & he will start to have a better understanding of aluminum. That's a start....

Next, I just wanted to add a few tidbits to give the youngsters/newbies a little more fodder to "log-in-memory". I do a lot of alum. polished d/plate auto accessories & some of it is quite thin. It's TIG or O/A. The production crafts I make which are .125>, I do MIG for the production aspect of a decent profit margin.

I wanted to show the control of (2) processes that, basically, are the same..... just different heat source. These (2) valve covers are 16ga(.062) that I bend & weld the outside corners. They are then polished to match the exterior gloss.

The 1st pic is TIG, 1/16" 4043, using the "lay wire" technique.
The 2nd pic is O/A, fluxed seam, same wire fluxed only lightly stroking under the flame to fill. They are almost identical. I wanted to show the almost identical outcomes with both processes. If you learn O/A, TIG comes easily. Hope this helps the youngsters/newbies understand that there are quite a few variations of any process & very thin aluminum is served & controlled much better with TIG or O/A.

Denny

Oops.... I had a "senior moment"..... Here's a site that is quite illuminating & where I get some of my aluminum supplies. http://www.tinmantech.com/

[peter94]

rogrrr

You have no right to make the assumptions you are making. You are correct that I am under 30 (23), however that does not mean I think I know everything.

You don't know anything about me or my capabilities.

I've always been a self starter my whole life, trying something new whenever I can. Maintained employment before since I was 15, and have already made accomplisments in my life such as becoming ASE certified, with the goal of being master certified before I finish school (in May). I spent last summer working for Ford in Dearborn as part of an internship where I learned alot about the insides of the automotive industry, people, and professionalism.

I have no problem saying that these people on this board have way more experience and skill than I ever will, because its true! But that doesn't mean I can't learn to get better, nor does it mean the experiences I've had are meaningless.

Even before I bought this boat I spoke with my colleges lab supervisor about teaching me how to tig and mig aluminum, which we have setup for this week.

I've had basic stuff such as metallurgy, and intro welding classes, which I would not consider professional training, but are still valid so i'm not walking into this completely blind.

If you think I'm going to launch my boat and have it sink, you are WRONG! The boat has floatation, so it will just kind of sit level with the surface of the water, ha ha....

yorkiepap,

Thanks for the pictures, to my untrained eye the TIG looks like it came out a little smoother. What are the valvecovers for?

What are your thoughts on the filler to use for this type of repair. I am a few months out from attempting this, just trying to get the thought process down. I understand the 4043 is a softer filler, and appears would be less resistant to cracking, while 5356 is a harder filler but more prone to cracking.

I'm just trying to imagine this boat hitting waves and the repetitive vibrations eventually causing the same thing to happen again.

Just out of curiosity Pangea and SundownIII, what would you charge a typical customer to repair the puncture in the side of this boat, and then reweld the cracked portion of the keel?

[yorkiepap]

Hey Peter,
The valve covers are for these..... the V8 mailboxes I make.

I would suggest 4043 for your repair....

Denny

[peter94]

Wow, those are pretty cool!

[SundownIII]

Peter,

I learned "long ago" not to quote prices based on a photogragh or what an owner "tells me".

Anybody's who's been in the business for awhile has already dealt with their fair share of the "it's only a small break, you can weld it up in 5 minutes" guys.

Even the tear (from striking a rock I suspect) can be more involved than one may suspect. Depends on how "localized" the damage is and what the condition of the base material is. To the uninformed, it would seem easy to just tig weld a quick patch over the damaged area. That may work, or it could be the absolute wrong solution. If it's in an area where you'd expect a degree of flexing, welding a patch on could restrain the base metal and cause a failure in the HAZ adjacent to the weld bead.

Welding the keel is another whole "issue". Can it be welded from the outside or does it have to be welded on the inside. If inside, then access becomes a big issue. Do the seats/flotation compartments need to be removed, etc.

Aluminum boats are designed/built with a eye towards production efficiency, not considering how difficult it will be to get to things to effect a repair.

[rlnash]

Yorkiepap - Those are really neat mailboxes - I wish I could hang that around here. The bad boys would have that smashed in a New York minute. I had to make one from plate steel and plant the post in concrete- so far it has prevailed. Has yours withstood a beating?
Rick

[peter94]

Thanks for the response SundownIII,

The keel would need to be welded from the inside. If I were to take it in somewhere I would have everything removed, the floor, console, fuel tank, etc.

My plan is in the next month or two to remove the floor, console, floatation, and basically everything down to the keel. This way I can asses the extent of the damage and determine the best solution from there. The reason I asked you about the price is because I was wondering what the ballpark would be if everything was removed, and surface prep and welding needed to be done.

Are we talking $500, or $5000, or is the range that large?

Thanks again

[yorkiepap]

Hey Peter,
To try to provide you some assistance in determining your outlay, you will have to formulate your approach for a repair.

1) Go price a new boat of the same mfg. or configuration.

2) After you have removed all the interior material, get out the yellow pages & start making calls to as many welding shops as there is in your area & see if they do aluminum and/or marine welding. Ask them if you could bring it by for an estimation. No one can give you an estimate without examining the entire gamut of repairs & possibilities of replacement of material.

3) Get WRITTEN estimates. Ask if the repair would be with MIG or TIG & not some Alumaweld with a propane torch. With each estimate, ask the owner/manager to see samples of their aluminum welding & the process used. If they start to squirm, you now have an indication that they would not be acceptable because you have some knowledge of the processes used & they would feel you would/could spot defects or sloppiness on their part. Any reputable repair shop would have no reservation to show you their work & quality & PROVIDE REFERENCES!

4) Most reputable shops would give you a call if they found anything additional that needed repair & the cost of repair is not in the original estimate. You would then have the opportunity to agree or decide you didn't want any more expense. DO NOT!! accept any additional costs if you did not PRE-APPROVE of the additional work. I've seen many really get burned with this tactic.

5) Be smart. THINK! Make sure you are aware of ALL circumstances prior to leaving your boat for a repair. Shop around..... I'm sure there is someone who is quite qualified to do the work, reputable, & hopefully, for your benefit, may be a bit slow with the economic situation & give you a real good deal just to get some work. You also have to understand that there will be NO GUARANTEE...... The repair shop has no idea of the usage of the boat once it leaves their premises. I hope you understand that. If you have any doubts at all, ask the repair shop to fill the boat with water while you are there & lay under it to SEE if it leaks. Remember.... "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." $500.......$5000, Yup.....somewhere in between.

Do your homework, Peter.

Denny