OT: Need Generator advice

[Corkscrew]

I am looking to by a backup generator for home and farm. I have been looking at the gas powered portable Generacs (GUARDIAN® ULTRA SOURCE) in the 12.5-15KW range. Has anyone used these Generacs and if so, how to you like them. Any other recomendations on backup power appriciated as well.

Thanks!

[superarc]

well you come to a welding forum.you gotta be doing some type of welding.so get a proper welder/generator for your needs!

[Franz]

Generac, in the power business is called GENECRAP! Thay are aluminum wound lightweight pieces of crap with disgusting engines, and pisspoor parts availability. Given all this to recommend them, they are at best 1000 hour machines, right up there on the quality ladder with Coleman.

Genset load calculation tables are generally offered by genset sellers, with the sole purpose of selling oversized generating plants at higher profit margains.

The only effective way to size a genset is by using an Amprobe, preferrably recording, and determine your real load. Don't even consider oversizing so you can help a neighbor, because that neighbor will promptly sue you for providing improper power if one of his appliances craps out. I can provide references if you doubt that statement.

"Peak Power & Surge Power" are pure bullsnot sales terms, and are used to fleece buyers. Either of those terms referrs to the maximum power a machine will develope just before the genset frys, or the motor stalls. On a well built set, the engine will stall before the generator gets near to burnout.

The most difficult loads to start in a house are repulsion/inmduction motors, such as a sump pump and furnace blower, and the set must be sized to start those.

Regardless of brand, buy a machine that runs at 1800 rpm, rather than 3600 as it will run longer before the engine needs repair, and buy a machine with as much rotating weight as you can afford, so the momentum will work to balance engine requirements.

Stay away from units that "idle" to conserve fuel, the fuel savings is minimal, and the frequency at idle will screw up your electronics.
Also be aware that most heating equipment, especially oil fired, is extremely demanding on exact generator frequency.

If you really need 12 to 15 kva, consider a military surplus Diesel unit, they are available at very reasonable price from outfits like CS Coleman. Many of them are available in 3 phase.

[superarc]

Originally posted by Franz
Generac, in the power business is called GENECRAP! Thay are aluminum wound lightweight pieces of crap with disgusting engines, and pisspoor parts availability. Given all this to recommend them, they are at best 1000 hour machines, right up there on the quality ladder with Coleman.

Genset load calculation tables are generally offered by genset sellers, with the sole purpose of selling oversized generating plants at higher profit margains.

The only effective way to size a genset is by using an Amprobe, preferrably recording, and determine your real load. Don't even consider oversizing so you can help a neighbor, because that neighbor will promptly sue you for providing improper power if one of his appliances craps out. I can provide references if you doubt that statement.

"Peak Power & Surge Power" are pure bullsnot sales terms, and are used to fleece buyers. Either of those terms referrs to the maximum power a machine will develope just before the genset frys, or the motor stalls. On a well built set, the engine will stall before the generator gets near to burnout.

The most difficult loads to start in a house are repulsion/inmduction motors, such as a sump pump and furnace blower, and the set must be sized to start those.

Regardless of brand, buy a machine that runs at 1800 rpm, rather than 3600 as it will run longer before the engine needs repair, and buy a machine with as much rotating weight as you can afford, so the momentum will work to balance engine requirements.

Stay away from units that "idle" to conserve fuel, the fuel savings is minimal, and the frequency at idle will screw up your electronics.
Also be aware that most heating equipment, especially oil fired, is extremely demanding on exact generator frequency.

If you really need 12 to 15 kva, consider a military surplus Diesel unit, they are available at very reasonable price from outfits like CS Coleman. Many of them are available in 3 phase.

wow you know alot about them.you probaly got one!

[cope]

Corkscrew, if you can get by with 10KW, think about a welder/generator. Cost isn't usually that much more. If not, as Franz said, stay away from Generac. Check with your local electric and gas utility company. They may have some recommendations.

[dseman]

Hey Franz,

What's your recommendation on a 5-7Kw generator for emergency residential use?

Also, is there a natural gas only carb. that I can use that WILL NOT reduce the rating? Or are all NG carbs going to give a power reduction?

-dseman

[superarc]

SORRY EDITED YOUR WRONG VERBAGE.........

[Fla Jim]

Contrary to what that "Cretin" says, Franz is right on the money about Generac. The industrial ones are not any better then the home grade. I have to deal with that quite often on new water plants. The design engineers will quote a job as cheap as possible. As along as it lasts the warrantee period it's good! I figured out that the difference between engineer boots and cowboy boots is that the cowboy boots has the"BS" on the outside.
I have a Lincoln Ranger 8, that will run my house if I do some load shedding, just run refridgerator, reduced lighting and a small TV.

Jim

[Franz]

7-10 KVA units, listed in order of preference
Deutz, Kubota, Miller/Hobart, Onan (a cummins product) and Kohler.
Actually, Kubota might be a bnetter choice for #1 since they have a better network of support facilitys than Deutz. There are also plenty of deals on Kubota since the distributors compete against each other for volume.

Natural Gas ~ and Propane both derate max KVA of a set because NG and Propane contain less BTU value than a similar volume of gasoline. The true rating factor in any genset is the power the engine can deliver to the generator end of the machine, thus the derating factor.

Another IMPORTANT consideration on any small genset, especially portables, is oil capacity. On small air cooled engines around 60% of engine cooling is accomplished by the lubricating oil, and many "manufacturers" are putting out 9hp class machines with 1 to 1.5 quart oil pans. These machines very quickly become scrap.
Oil in small air cooled machines should be changed every 10 hours as there is usually no filter system on the machine.

BTW, FRANZ does not own a Genecrap, and NEVER will. He does own 2 Kohlers and an Onan he removed from Army Crotch of Engineers dams in 1981 that were replaced by Genecraps. The Genecraps have since been replaced by real gensets at those dams. Just another little incident of your federal tax dollars at waste.

[Franz]

Jim, I thought Cretin was the Prime Minister of Canada.

Also, I think you underestimate the depth of **** relative to engineers. The one from the Army replaced 17 gensets on dam sites because good solid machines with under 200 hours on them "couldn't be remotely started", and the Genecrap he replaced them with could. Oddly, I was able to remotely start all 17 of the obsolete units with 3 wires and 2 pushbuttons. I demonstrated that to him just before I drove away with the last unit he had declared scrap. By the time I got back to the shop, there were 2 messages from him waiting for me, and 1 from his boss, who happened to be standing there when I proved my point. Care to guess who didn't want me to call his boss and tell him the truth?

The Onan in the pic was donated to me by the Army Crotch, and continues to work 20 years later.

[cope]

And with all the hours on it, it won't have a measurable cylinder ridge when you overhaul it.

[Franz]

****, I don't think I'll live long enough to overhaul that machine.
It's usually positioned next to the garage so it can be standby when Baby Enron craps out.
In 20 years, I've gone to the considerable expense of 4 new sparkplugs, and an electric fuel pump, and a couple oil filters. The 1950 Onan fuel pumps do NOT like Ethanol enhanced fuel at all.

In testiment to my laziness, note the floodlight on the unit is remotely rotated using an antenna rotor. The light mast must be hand cranked however.

[Corkscrew]

Thanks for all the comments. I had a feeling that the Generacs were junk. I didn't know that they had aluminum windings, and if that is the case then I'm not interested. I just need a Generator for back up power when the power fails. We just got through huricane Isabel here in Virginia and it made me think that back up power would be a good idea from now on. I really just have two high amp demands at my home, one is a well pump the other is a hot water heater. Everything else is run off of gas and as soon as my electric hot water heater takes a crap, it will be replaced with a gas unit. I am thinking that I can get by with about a 7.5 KW generator to run everything I need. The only thing I am worried about is if the hot water heater and the water pump are running at the same time, it might be too much for a 7.5 KW unit. I can spend about $2000.00 for a gen and would like to have a Diesel unit, because I always have plenty of diesel on the farm. I know the diesel gens cost more than I have to spend and I really don't want a propane fired gen because of the tremendious heat they run under and the lack of portability. Is it realalistic to find a quality gen in the 7.5 KW range for $2000.00 or is that just dreaming?

Thanks!

[Fla Jim]

Franz:
Typical engineer! If you can find the relay on the transfer switch that goes to the generator start points you can parallel the wiring and use all kinds of remote devices.
Also engineers have a bad habit of undersizing generators. I've had to use points on the emergency power on relay, to lock out controls on pumps to keep the generator from overloading.

[Fla Jim]

Run synthetic in your generator. It will run cooler. I run Amsoil in my Ranger 8

Jim