going to get new tank, which gas?

[Dan]

Dan, what were you using for the spray trans when you had a MM210?

You know something I don't? Last time I was out at my Dad's my MM 210 was still in our little shop , right next to the Migmaster 250.

To spray arc with the MM 210 I use 98/2oxy. This gas mix requires a lower voltage and amperage then any of the common Argon/C02 gas mixes capable of producing a spray transfer arc. My MM 210 is capable of outputting 24 -25 load volts in the 200 - 210 amp range. With 98/2 and an .030 or .035 solid wire this output range produces a very solid spray transfer arc - I prefer the .030. Since both of these wire sizes transition over to a spray transfer arc at a lower amperage then 200 amps with 98/2, I can drop the out put down further, like 24 -25 load volts and 180 amps, and I am still producing a solid spray arc.

[dda52]

Miller's GMAW book has spray transfer on steel voltages as such:

.030 - 24-28v - 330-650 ipm
.035 - 24-30v - 340-625 ipm

All with Argon and 1-5% oxy.

I can run spray on my MM210 with C-8 ( 92 Ar - 8 CO2 ). FWIW

[Dan]

Here's some refernce material to checkout, provided by Miller.

http://millerwelds.com/education/cal...calculator.php

[Black Wolf]

Hey Dan,

I have reviewed your post and the information on the Miller site you gave the link for. Be it far from me to argue with such a respected member of the forum. The info on the Miller calculator appears to be as I posted before - turning down the wire feed until a spray cone is detected. Your welds are really impressive. Very nice as always. I was trained that True Spray Arc happens above 26.5 Volts and I'm sticking to that. I have cheated and used the pseudo-spray that you guys are referring to. Generally when I have the chance to spray arc, I like to be 28.5V or higher to a max of 32-34V depending on the wire. I switch between GMAW & FCAW often so I use one shielding gas product that is a 98%Argon/2%CO2 mixture. It keeps the costs down a little, is still good for spray arc though more voltage is required with the absence of Oxygen, and is also suitable for FCAW.

I stand by my statement that Lincoln does not recognize the PM215 as being Spray-Arc capable because of their gas recommendations which are inline with Short Circuit and Globular Transfer.

All the little quirks about welding comes down to the same point - It's a preference thing. I'm not here to say anyone is right or anyone is wrong..... just passing on information.

Later,

[ace4059]

Blackwolf,
yes I am talking about my PM215.
let me get this straight, you are saying that the lincoln will not spray, but the miller will. Hows that the miller will, but the lincoln wont. the lincoln puts out more amps that the miller so I figured that It would spray a little better than the miller.

[MAC702]

So what's "psuedo spray"? Are Dan and Don doing a spray transfer with the MM210 or not?

[dda52]

I just look at the droplets....if they are bigger than the wire, you are in glob...if they are smaller, it is spray. That was always an indicator. Besides, you can spray with .023...no idea why you would, but it is posible. At 26.5, wouldn't it be overvolted and revert back to globular?


ace, don't be so sure the Miller won't keep up with the PM. Mine has been over 225 amps...I was pushing it a little. Miller has a habit of underrating these units. I would suspect both PM and MM will put out just about the same. One just has a super snazzy blue paint job.

[ace4059]

ace, don't be so sure the Miller won't keep up with the PM. Mine has been over 225 amps...I was pushing it a little. Miller has a habit of underrating these units. I would suspect both PM and MM will put out just about the same. One just has a super snazzy blue paint job.

Even if miller underrates there amps on the MM210, The PM puts out 250 amps(assuming the miller can put out about the same, or a little less), that should be more than enough to spray arc (from what I have seen). I am just wondering where BLACKWOLF is comming up with the idea the the PM215 wont spray with the correct blend of gas. On millers website It says you can spray 1/4" steel with 200 amps and about 400 ipm on wire speed with 98/2.

I know that the Miller 210 and the Lincoln 215 are almost the same. They are VERY close on the outputs. So I dont see where other people are comming up with the thoughts that the PM215 doesnt have near the oputput of the MM210.

[SundownIII]

HECK,

I've always suspected that Dan had access to some "super secret" welding machine that put those beads down for him.

Guy has really got a set of "steady hands".

[Mike W]

I knew when my Hobart got into spray. I soon realized that my Tweco 200 amp gun was not going to hold up to a steady diet of this. The nozzle was starting to change colors with the heat. I have a 400 amp Miller gun but haven't tried it yet. The Tweco barely got warm with CO2 to keep it cool.

[Black Wolf]

I am just wondering where BLACKWOLF is comming up with the idea the the PM215 wont spray with the correct blend of gas. On millers website It says you can spray 1/4" steel with 200 amps and about 400 ipm on wire speed with 98/2.

I know that the Miller 210 and the Lincoln 215 are almost the same. They are VERY close on the outputs. So I dont see where other people are comming up with the thoughts that the PM215 doesnt have near the oputput of the MM210.

I am going to completely remove my personal opinions from this responseand ask you to look at the information. If you use Dan's link and the Miller welding calculator,(which it appears you have) look carefully at the gas recommendations. Left side is Short Circuit Transfer, and recommends 75%Ar/25%CO2 for economy and weld characteristics, also because any less than 85% Argon will not have True Spray Arc. Now, look at right side, Spray Arc lists 98%Ar/2%Oxygen big difference. The recommended gas is well above the 85% Argon required to Spray. The Oxygen adds other favourable qualities.

Now, go to your owner's manual or the Lincoln Electric website and review gas recommendations for the PM215. First gas recommended is CO2, Second is an Argon/CO2 blend. Neither is good for spray arc. Argon/CO2 blend helps control spatter at higher Voltages. Realize that you have two differerent manufacturers recommending different gas blends trying to highlight what their machines can do. If Lincoln thought their PM215 was capable of True Spray Arc, don't you think they would advertise it in the same fashion as Miller???

I'm not getting into comparing amperages and which one has higher output at what duty cycle.... I'll leave that to you. I'm going by the Voltage output and the PM215 tops out at around 24-25 Volts which is below what is required for True Spray Arc. Take careful notice that I refer to TRUE SPRAY ARC. High Voltages, High Deposition Rates, Molten Metal Sprayed onto surface.

If you have a loose enough definition of spray arc transfer - just about any machine is capable of it. I'll explain. If you're only criteria is being quiet and having a spray cone, what do you consider it when you have a dirty contact tip, or feeding problems and have a partial burnback to the tip??? Are you Spray Arcing. 'Fraid not friend, not even close. Same holds true for any machine that you can dial down the wire feed speed low enough to generate same circumstance, partial burnback to tip. Still not True Spray Arcing. These are examples or low wire speeds for a given Voltage and the wire is exploding before reaching the surface (Short Circuit) or forming droplets (Globular Transfer) is is still not, by any accepted definition TRUE SPRAY ARC TRANSFER.

With all due respect to Dan, and his immense experience and abilities, he can do amazing things with a welder. The average Joe Blow will not have that kind of control, nor have the same results.

Miller tends to oversell some of it's machines capabilities to out do the competition. Every manufacturer does it to some extent.

Ace, take your PM215, and dial down the wire feed speed. Give it an honest try and let us know how you make out. I would suggest using 98%Ar/2%CO2 to help out the arc and control spatter. I am not thinking you will be happy with the results but give it a whirl anyway.

Later,

[SMS]

Just because they dont list it as being spray arc capable does not mean it cannot spray... you have to remember when you push a machine to its limits, the duty cycle will be greatly reduced so it wont always be very useful to you

[Clay Walters]

Not sure I see much on this thread developing beyond a Red vs Blue argument. Why is that? If two machines are both running at peak and one is designed to output more amps at the sacrifice of voltage or vice-versa; there will be a point where one will perform differently than the other. So what?

Nothing worse than trying to make something do things it wasn't designed for. Just because someone else can?

At the top end of the range wouldn't variables just as input voltage available also make it possible you'll get results in one place that are not attainable elsewhere?

Shoot, a PM215 is probably a great machine and should just be used as it was designed to be used.

Perhaps looking at a neutral resourse would be useful...ESAB university may offer spray transfer parameters all could agree on; I don't know.

Here's an interesting writeup that may be useful: http://www.scsprocess.com/library.da...Guidelines.pdf

Regards to all,

Clay

[Dan]

Are Dan and Don doing a spray transfer with the MM210 or not?

In my cases, the arc is dialed into the were the wire has a sharp point on the end of it, and the metal transfering acrossed starts at the tip of this point and transfer acrossed in a cone shape pattern. These are the same exact characteristics i achieve with my Migmaster 250, when I really open it up with an .035.

I keep the arc length fairly short. Basically I dial the arc in until you just start to hear a little crackle, then I back the wire speed off just enough to eliminate this crackle sound.

[Dan]

Even if miller underrates there amps on the MM210, The PM puts out 250 amps(assuming the miller can put out about the same, or a little less), that should be more than enough to spray arc (from what I have seen). I am just wondering where BLACKWOLF is comming up with the idea the the PM215 wont spray with the correct blend of gas. On millers website It says you can spray 1/4" steel with 200 amps and about 400 ipm on wire speed with 98/2.

I know that the Miller 210 and the Lincoln 215 are almost the same. They are VERY close on the outputs. So I dont see where other people are comming up with the thoughts that the PM215 doesnt have near the oputput of the MM210.

Amperage is only part of the scenario you also need the voltage to reach the proper level. Lincoln rating your PM 215 at 250 amps on the top end doesn't mean much, with out supplying the voltage the unit is capable of outputting at a 250 amp output. More then likely the voltage will drop to the point were your only option would be a self shielded fluxcore wire. By know means though am I bashing your PM 215.

Whether the PM 215 is capable of reaching the necessary voltage, I have no idea. There is always a chance, that the slope of tap #7 on PM 215 might be a little steeper then the slope of tap #7 on the MM 210, making the voltage on the PM 215 at 200 amp be slightly lower then what the MM 210 is capable of producing.