OT. How many have had their Cert Pulled.

[partagas]

I would like to hear from you guys. How many of you have had a cert pulled by a CWI. We got a new guy at our place and and after seeing and inspecting over 50 of my pipes he said the last three were not up to Company or AWS code. So he pulled my Cert. So now I have to re-test to get it back.

[Eric Carroll]

What was the problem?Is he trying to justify his job?

[partagas]

I have no Fing clue. When I went to talk to him about it. He walked away. Twice I tried, after that he can kiss my (you get the idea).

[overkill]

If you have no clue as to what the problem is (as far as your work is concerned) and feel your getting the shaft I would step over his head and insist on seeing all documentation conerning the matter. Including your weld setting next to the code book. You do have that right.

[enlpck]

Under the code, you have the right to know (and it may be required to inform you) why your welds were rejected, or you can not address the problem and requalify.

When you find out, you MAY find, that it was out of your control. A coworker was pulled on a power plant job after four rejected welds (inclusions shouwing on the Radiograph). He's been welding 40 years. He holds paper for pretty much every material you will find in power, refinery, or nuke. He KNEW his welds were good. So, he went through the jacket and found that the nozzles he was welding on th a header (medium... around 1 to 1.5" weld deposit. I don't rknow the diameter) were the wrong grade of stainless, and the problem was carbide precipitation, and this was due to material. So, it was resolved.

That said, everyone has bad days, and the occational rejected weld will happen. Any inspector worth crap will not need to be asked for the details, as his job is to insure quality, not piss of welders.

[partagas]

Overkill, i did go over his head. I spoke with the forman, and V.P. They both said my work has been fine and think the way he went about this was wrong. I am waiting for an answer I posed to them yesterday, That if I have to retest, the test is based on a bend test. And that the " look " of the weld would not be a factor. So that would put me right back where I was.

Enlpck, All the work we do is for refinery skids. And the pipes in question were 18" pipes. All the other stuff went fine. He just had a problem with the " big " stuff. When I was talking to the V.P he said he told the guy, "he can not be pulling certs left and right or he would have to be welding ( the CWI )".

I also think that someone with that amount of power should be forced to be acountable. I have to stamp all of my welds so that you know who did the work. But he does not have to talk to us about our work or any right ups. I am sorry, but I feel he should have talked to me about it first. The only thing he said to me and this was in fornt or co-workers was that the weld looked like " Doo-Doo". I am glad to see that the CWI manual has words that he was able to use.

[Engloid]

Sounds like he was very unprofessional in doing this.

If they want to retest you and they say looks doesn't matter....that's wrong also. The welds must pass visual examination prior to destructive testing.

I would also be pissed that the guy felt it necessary to address the situation with you in front of others. You may want to speak to him directly about this, and if he gives any lip, do so in front of HIS supervisor. In the end, you have to work with him and he has to work with you.

Watch your back and make sure your welds are good after this....otherwise, he will be looking for reasons to crack you again. You may want to ask for a copy of the welding codes. They MUST at least allow you to access them, or they can't expect you to weld in accordance to them. Not even a CWI knows all that stuff and needs to refer to the books at times.

I also agree that you need to be informed of why the welds were rejected....not only for your benefit, but how is the supervisor to have anybody repair the welds if the CWI didn't tell him what's wrong with it?

[toolaholic]

i feel for you. this is a kick in the ba##z, and hurts your spirit and confidence.
this person does not have the skill for this job! welding aside he will break the rythem of work, and good will in your co.
hang in there, you,ll see him leave.

watch your temper, you,ll win good luck tool

[Engloid]

When I took the CWI course, they were very careful to tell us that we should use caution when rejecting welds, for any reason. They said to NEVER cuss or say a weld looks like crap. It's like telling somebody their kid is ugly...and you're likely to get slugged in the back of the head when you leave work one day.

The PROPER word an inspector should use would be "rejectable"...not "looks like doo-doo." They also said there were only two kinds of welds, acceptable and rejectable. notice...rejectABLE. That doesn't mean that you must always reject a weld just because you can. There are many times that it's a borderline call on a weld that you could reject, but have the option not to reject it.

If he claims you have excessive undercut, ask him how much there is and how much is acceptable. By the time he goes as far as to pull your certs, he should have measured the length and depth of undercut as well as looked up the actual amount that's acceptable. Granted, if the code says 2" long is the limit and you have 10", a ruler isn't needed. However, if he doesn't know how much is acceptable, and didn't look it up to verify it, he has no business being a CWI.

9 of 10 CWI's I have ran into don't know the codes they're hired to uphold....they do what they think is right because they really don't know anything else and are too lazy to read the book and find out.

For example, most CWI's will tell you that suckback in the root of a pipeweld is unacceptable by AWS code...but that is false. There are limits to the depth of suckback, but no limit to the length of it. You can have suckback all the way around it. I'm sure somebody will correct me on this if my memory's failing me on this.

[enlpck]

For example, most CWI's will tell you that suckback in the root of a pipeweld is unacceptable by AWS code...but that is false. There are limits to the depth of suckback, but no limit to the length of it. You can have suckback all the way around it. I'm sure somebody will correct me on this if my memory's failing me on this.

I believe this is correct. 1/32" depth is the number in my head.

A couple of points from ASME SecIX (AWS rules are similar)
QW322.1(b) [expiration of qualification may occur] "when there is a _specific_ reason to question his ability to make welds that meet specification, the qualifications which support the welding he is doing shall be revolked. All other qualifications not in question shall remain in effect." I would not think that 'dog-doo' meets the 'specific' clause. I would ask for a reason referenced to the WPS. It may be something like 'failed visual inspection due to excessive undercut and surface roughness', or 'uneven surface due to cold lap'. 'I don't like the way it looks' doesn't meet the spirit or letter of the codes.

QW163-Acceptance criteria for Bend Tests
"Guided bend tests shall have no open discontinuities in the weld or HAZ exceeding 1/8", measured in any direction on th convex surface of hte specimen after bending. Open discontinuities occuring on the corners of hte specimen occuring during testing shall not be considered unless there is definate evidence that they result from lack of fusion, slag inclusions, or other internal discontinuities." Again, AWS is similar.

Note that before prepping a coupon for bending, the weld as performed must pass visual.

[Engloid]

In reference to suckback:

I believe this is correct. 1/32" depth is the number in my head.

I believe it actually limits the amount of suckback to the amount of exterior reinforcement height. In other words, if you have a cap that stands 1/8" above the surface, you can have 1/8" suckback. That said, there are limits on the amount of exterior reinformcement. So, you're bound by the wall thickness. The thickness of the weld cannot be less than the thickness of the pipe itself.

So, there can be a limit on the suckback because the cap height is limited by usage of an equation. This limit will vary based on the thickness of the pipe.

What I'm saying is that 1/32" may be the imposed limit on one thickness of pipe, but when welding a thicker pipe, that limit may increase.

.....waiting on somebody to hopefully send us verified quotes on this, as I don't have access to the codes right now.

[partagas]

Well thank you you all for your advice. And today got even worse. I found out he pulled ALL of my certs. and on top of that the compnay is going to lay off around 25%. So now I am dead weight...............We all find out tomorrow who gets the " temp" axe. GOD I need to hit LOTTO..... LOL.

[Engloid]

If you're to be welding to AWS D1.1, you are supposed to retest only after additional training. This can be as much as weeks of practice, or just a few minutes to review the code. If I were you, I'd go get the book and look up the relevant sections, copy and highlight them and take them to HIS supervisor and yours. Should you get laid off and feel that it was over this situation, you may have the option of a lawsuit....so they may fear laying you off and keep you on hand to be safe. You could even GENTLY mention the word "lawsuit" to them in your conversation

I think this inspector was way out of line on this one, especially to pull all your certs. He likely will not go pull the book and show you where you did wrong, so go pull it and show supervision where HE was wrong.

[enlpck]

Well thank you you all for your advice. And today got even worse. I found out he pulled ALL of my certs. and on top of that the compnay is going to lay off around 25%. So now I am dead weight...............We all find out tomorrow who gets the " temp" axe. GOD I need to hit LOTTO..... LOL.

What code are you certifying to? Note the reference above to ASME SecIX QW322.1(b). AWS is similar in wording.

Either: a) they are not working to an accepted code, only to shop rules, and managenent can do what they want

b) they are working to an accepted code, and they should show it to you. If they arn't following the code rules, MAJOR problem for them. If they won't show it to you, wrongful termination case (can't fire you for being unqualified, or put you at the bottom of the list at layoff time if you have seniority, without giving a reason) You may not win (probably won't?) but at least it will help the next guy.

[JTMcCracken]

If you're to be welding to AWS D1.1, you are supposed to retest only after additional training.

No, you can immediatly retest a welder that failed qualification, he just has to weld two of each specimen.

JTMcC.