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View Full Version : wich welder to buy, Lincoln precision tig 275 or Miller Dynasty 300DX......



garyput
11-25-2004, 07:44 PM
Hi, new to the forum tonight. Tonight I sold my Lincoln 175 square wave tig. I bought it 5 years ago to do stuff for myself in my shop working on my cars. Over the years I have been doing alot more tig work with this machine and now I am ready to step up to a water cooled more powerfull versatile machine. In my shop I do alot of moly and mild steel roll cage work, and do alot of custom fabricated items with aluminum in size from about 1/8" to 1/4".

I thought the machine I wanted was the Lincoln Precision tig 275 but I also found myself interested in the Miller Dynasty 300DX. I have never used a Dynasty machine so the only obvious thing I see from pictures is it is very much smaller compared to the Lincoln machine. I have a small shop and I'm space limited. I'm not color specific, I have a Miller 185 mig machine and love it. I want to hear from you guys that have used both machines and tell me the good and bad about both of them. I haven't made up my mind wich one to get yet, the Miller is about $2100 more than the Lincoln but the cost isn't of any concern to me. This will be a long term investment that will bring money back to me over a short period of time.

Also, having gone from the 175 square wave to either the Precision 275 or the Dynasty will I see a big difference in weld quality when the machine is set up properly. The 175 was simple enough for me to use, power, polarity, amps. The 175 square wave is the only machine I have tig welded with so could I assume that anything else might be like a cadillac.

Please tell me all you know about these two machines, Precision tig 275, and the Dynasty 300DX. I'm leaning more towards the Miller for it's features and size but would like some more justifcation for the extra cost.

Thanks for your time!!!

Teeps
11-25-2004, 10:00 PM
I only wish I had a 200 dx to start tigging myself, It will be in the works for next year.

I'm told once you get used to the adjustability of the AC interter tig machines 200/300 dx for example, you will not ever want to use something without those features.
They simply give you more control over your welds, and if you take advantage of those settings, you can make better welds, with better penetration, and cleaner looks than if you didn't have those options (speaking of the GTAW process).

Some guys can still weld aluminum with a 120 volt mig (GMAW) setup, but I think you will get 10 times better/prettier results with the inverter machine, and the extra controls you get.

I'm no expert though, just my .02

Planet X
11-25-2004, 10:29 PM
Why are you not considering the Syncrowave 250dx vs. the Dynasty?

I understand it is not a blue/red thing, just wondering if there was something abut the PT275 you liked-the reasons if any ,may help in reaching your decision.

garyput
11-25-2004, 11:13 PM
I was first interested in the lincoln precision tig because the tig I have now is lincoln. And another reason is earlier this summer when I first thought about buying a bigger machine, the local weld shop had a Lincoln PT275 demo for sale on the showroom floor. I decided I would wait a little while until I bought a new one and now that I am looking and reading alot of these boards I find myself really liking the features that come with the Dynasty DX welder. And it looks like the inverter machines are the way to go from what I have read on other message boards about them.

Brand X
11-25-2004, 11:43 PM
Why are you not considering the Syncrowave 250dx vs. the Dynasty?

I understand it is not a blue/red thing, just wondering if there was something abut the PT275 you liked-the reasons if any ,may help in reaching your decision.


Planet X,
I still trying to firgure out why you didn't ask youself that question????/ :confused: :p ;)

Anyway, I think you lost another to the old tech vs the new better tech. It's kind of too bad but I am going to miss those dinosaurs, when they finally S**T can them!!! :D

Engloid
11-25-2004, 11:45 PM
I have never used the Lincoln you're considering...

But I used a 300DX for a couple years straight. It is simply my favorite welding machine of all time!!! If I could have any welding machine in the world, this would be it. I can't afford one at home though.

It NEVER failed to be the best machine I've ever used. Below are some pics off my webpage of welds I made with it.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/engloid/workpics/cunipipe.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/engloid/workpics/flange2.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/engloid/workpics/ni400-5.jpg

Planet X
11-26-2004, 12:16 AM
Planet X,
I still trying to firgure out why you didn't ask youself that question????/ :confused: :p ;)

Anyway, I think you lost another to the old tech vs the new better tech. It's kind of too bad but I am going to miss those dinosaurs, when they finally S**T can them!!! :D

Oh, I did ask myself that question Brand X. But in my case $$ did matter and for the Dynasty kind've $$ I would have got a PT-375 and still had $1,235.50 left in my pocket :p

The $$ left-over, would have been available for things like; a turning roll , or weld positioner, or bigger shop, or phone book add, or whatever.

Now I will not debate the 'adjustment superiority' of these Inverters, I have looked at the owners manuals, way, way over my head. Luckily, my arc standards are not that high. I got the tig machine I did because it can make beads that look like the ones found on high dollar aluminum radiators and mnt. bikes. That is good enough for me. Now whether I as the welder can make them- time will tell :D

I will make a bet with you Brand X- I say the PT machines will be in the Lincoln product catalog 5 years from now, do you think that Dynasty will be in Millers ? Especially when Lincoln decides to make their own AC/DC tigs- right now it seems (USA wise), Esab / Thermal / Miller are the only players in this niche..

Engloid
11-26-2004, 12:24 AM
Oh, I did ask myself that question Brand X. But in my case $$ did matter and for the Dynasty kind've $$ I would have got a PT-375 and still had $1,235.50 left in my pocket :p

The $$ left-over, would have been available for things like; a turning roll , or weld positioner, or bigger shop, or phone book add, or whatever.
I'd not be so quick to spend that money...as you will spend it over the next 5 years on consumables and replacement parts...or possibly even put it towards a Miller. :)

I will make a bet with you Brand X- I say the PT machines will be in the Lincoln product catalog 5 years from now, do you think that Dynasty will be in Millers ?
The Dynasty is a Miller and is in their catalog. Maybe I missed the point you were making here, I dunno.

Planet X
11-26-2004, 12:50 AM
I'd not be so quick to spend that money...as you will spend it over the next 5 years on consumables and replacement parts...or possibly even put it towards a Miller. :)

The Dynasty is a Miller and is in their catalog. Maybe I missed the point you were making here, I dunno.


Engloid , too late I have allready shot my wad -
http://webpages.charter.net/julieray/pt175boxed.JPG

As good as the Dynasty is for Miller I am guessing that in under 5 years Miller will replace it with a newer & better model. I just cannot afford that upgrade cycle, for me the mature transformer based tigs are the better bet. The manufacturers will have little room to increase 'value' other than lowering price or increasing amperage outputs.

I bought the Precision Tig instead of the Syncrowave tig, because it seemed to offer more amps for the $$ and my history with Lincoln products has been 100%.

But if the PT were removed from the picture I would be showing a picture of a Miller box-just as big with a Syncro in it :D

Brand X
11-26-2004, 12:57 AM
I will make a bet with you Brand X- I say the PT machines will be in the Lincoln product catalog 5 years from now, do you think that Dynasty will be in Miller.

I know in less then ten years the new pt Lincoln will look more like a dynasty then your machine. Any bets? ;)

Planet X
11-26-2004, 01:13 AM
I will make a bet with you Brand X- I say the PT machines will be in the Lincoln product catalog 5 years from now, do you think that Dynasty will be in Miller.

I know in less then ten years the new pt Lincoln will look more like a dynasty then your machine. Any bets? ;)

Well maybe so, but I bet how it welds today will be the same ten years from now (Pt 275) :D
Speaking just for myself, I bet the warranty on the Dynasty would expire before I learned all of its functions. Between, drawing up designs,cutting,fitting, making parts, regular job,house /yard maintence,family ,holidays (required socializing), virtual welding (welding message boards). I just dont see myself as having the time to play with a tool like the Dynasty ;)

Planet X
11-26-2004, 01:28 AM
I was first interested in the lincoln precision tig because the tig I have now is lincoln. And another reason is earlier this summer when I first thought about buying a bigger machine, the local weld shop had a Lincoln PT275 demo for sale on the showroom floor. I decided I would wait a little while until I bought a new one and now that I am looking and reading alot of these boards I find myself really liking the features that come with the Dynasty DX welder. And it looks like the inverter machines are the way to go from what I have read on other message boards about them.

Ok, cool.
You know if you dont get the Dynasty you are always going to have that nagging feeling in the back of your mind about it. Safe bet is just to get it. The PT is just going to be a bigger/more powerful version of what you had before. Transformers have their limits and the Inverters are surpassing those limits-except on raw horsepower,but that advantage will end soon too. For what I do, the inverters are not cost effective and I dont need the superior tweakability the Dynasty offers.
And since my applications do not need the arc nirvana they promise-the wallet stays shut ;)

Brand X
11-26-2004, 02:11 AM
''Transformers have their limits and the Inverters are surpassing those limits-except on raw horsepower,but that advantage will end soon too''


I thought it ended awhile ago?


http://www.jandrweldingsupply.com/store/PDF/Prowave400gtsw.pdf

They are going to stop making this unit pretty soon, because nobody like Tig welding with a club of a torch it takes to handle that much heat.

Planet X
11-26-2004, 10:27 AM
''Transformers have their limits and the Inverters are surpassing those limits-except on raw horsepower,but that advantage will end soon too''


I thought it ended awhile ago?


http://www.jandrweldingsupply.com/store/PDF/Prowave400gtsw.pdf

They are going to stop making this unit pretty soon, because nobody like Tig welding with a club of a torch it takes to handle that much heat.

Hmm, yes it appears to be so. Does Sanrax make this one as well as the ta185? I have been surfing the world Inverter scene (bored), to see where US inverters rank, looks like Italy has been making these things for quite sometime, but the websites I have been finding 'Suck' :eek:

Engloid
11-26-2004, 11:19 AM
I will make a bet with you Brand X- I say the PT machines will be in the Lincoln product catalog 5 years from now, do you think that Dynasty will be in Miller.

So you're saying that you think that in 5 years, Lincoln will not have improved, and Miller will? I wouldn't bet on it unless I had to, and I'd have to bet in favor of Miller.

Well maybe so, but I bet how it welds today will be the same ten years from now (Pt 275) :D
Don't bet on it...unless you have money to blow..and my guess is if you had that money, you'd have bought the Dynasty. If I had to be money, within 10 years, you will have spent about $2000+ on repairs and/or consumables...and that's if you even keep it that long and if you can even get the service from them to keep it working that long.

I just worked at a place where we had a big Lincoln pulse mig machine, digital and all...I forget the model, but it wasn't 2 years old and Lincoln didn't want to work on it. They'd just give us the run around anytime we said anything about it not working well. We finally rolled cables up on it and tagged it as inoperable. The arc length would fluctuate to as long as an inch, while wire speed stayed constant....and still yet, the idiots tried telling us that the rollers were too tight. When we pointed out that wirespeed was constant, they just told us we'd have to call the shop. After all, it's easier to give somebody excuses over the phone...

Planet X
11-26-2004, 01:54 PM
So you're saying that you think that in 5 years, Lincoln will not have improved, and Miller will? I wouldn't bet on it unless I had to, and I'd have to bet in favor of Miller.

Don't bet on it...unless you have money to blow..and my guess is if you had that money, you'd have bought the Dynasty. If I had to be money, within 10 years, you will have spent about $2000+ on repairs and/or consumables...and that's if you even keep it that long and if you can even get the service from them to keep it working that long.

I just worked at a place where we had a big Lincoln pulse mig machine, digital and all...I forget the model, but it wasn't 2 years old and Lincoln didn't want to work on it. They'd just give us the run around anytime we said anything about it not working well. We finally rolled cables up on it and tagged it as inoperable. The arc length would fluctuate to as long as an inch, while wire speed stayed constant....and still yet, the idiots tried telling us that the rollers were too tight. When we pointed out that wirespeed was constant, they just told us we'd have to call the shop. After all, it's easier to give somebody excuses over the phone...

More exactly, I am of the opinion that the transformer/rectifier tig welders have reached their limits of technology. So any further changes or improvements will be minor things because there is little else that can be done to them. While inverter based tig welders are still on the upward climb toward their technology limits. Which is why the Dynasty 300 Dx, will be replaced with a newer and better model within a year or two.
If Lincoln choose's not to bring a product to compete with that model, its shelf lifespan will be increased, until other brands start eating into its sales.

Which welder would be standing the longest, Pt 275/Syncro 250/ or Dynasty 300, in a community college welding program environment ?
Now I happen to believe that it will be the Transformer/rectifier units that will last the longest, and I am pretty sure they will meet most of my tig metal melting needs.

The truth is I have never needed to deal with any repairs- Miller or Lincoln. My Powermig has been out've warranty for awhile but if it had broken and I was treated poorly that would have influenced my future purchases with them.
But my machine is not broken and has required no service...that too has influenced my future purchase's with them. Of course the PT purchase is now in the past :D

garyput
11-26-2004, 02:20 PM
This is all great info from you guy's, keep it coming!!!

Engloid
11-26-2004, 02:45 PM
More exactly, I am of the opinion that the transformer/rectifier tig welders have reached their limits of technology. So any further changes or improvements will be minor things because there is little else that can be done to them. While inverter based tig welders are still on the upward climb toward their technology limits. Which is why the Dynasty 300 Dx, will be replaced with a newer and better model within a year or two.
One factor that you may consider also is that if they are able to produce the transformer type at a lower cost, they may continue to make them for the smaller hobby/home usage machines, in order to keep a competetive price.

One complaint I have with Lincoln is that (opinion) they sell a PT machine, calling it Professional Tig...which is it definintely not!! It's the cheapest machine they have, with the least options. Even the pulser function is VERY limited. Of course they can get by with calling it a professional grade machine, but I think it's a far stretch. For most hobby or home usage, it's ok...but I'm sure it will leave you wishing you had more power on tap within under a year...if not a week. Just wait till you get some 1/4" material and have quite a bit of it to weld. My 175 Lincoln would kick the thermal overload after about 5 minutes of welding 3/16" aluminum. I have never worked in a shop that had a machine like these. Granted, I have used the Maxstar 140 and machines of that nature, but they are professional quality inverters that are made for their convenience and mobility...which they are great for. The PT machines are far from mobile machines.

Which welder would be standing the longest, Pt 275/Syncro 250/ or Dynasty 300, in a community college welding program environment ?
Well, the competiton there is definitely going to be between the two Miller machines. The Dynasty hasn't been around to PROVE it's reliability, but based on past Miller products, I'm confident that it will do fine. Therefore, I'd hate to even say which Miller will last longer...probably would be able to flip a coin 100 times and get about the same result that you will with the machines after 5-10 years.

Brand X
11-26-2004, 02:47 PM
I really think inverters have came a long way. I still would put my money on being able to fix a PT 275 ten years down the road over a ten year old dynasty. I just keep my warranty current on my inverters, then I do not worry about things like that. My stuff always sells for a decent price, so that is the way I handle it. That way I always have some of the best stuff without even worring about the magic smoke that can excape from all welding units. :eek: Some of the older things like engine drives, I could care less and will gamble on those. Same with a older syle mig/tig welder. They are proven tough, if you ever go to a repair shop.

Planet X
11-26-2004, 03:37 PM
Now we are talking something I understand, amps vs. $$

PT 375 = 375amps @ 40% for a cost of $ 4,425.00
PT 275 = 275amps @ 40% for a cost of $ 3,200.00
300 dx = 250amps @ 40% for a cost of $ 5,660.00

Not fair to compare a $ 1500 machine (PT 185) to these units costing thousands more.

My main point is that transformer machines give you more duty cycle and more amps for less dollars. I concede that Inverters yield superior welding control.

What I cannot concede is the fact that inverters cost more and IF transformer/rectifiers can accomplish the task- Then it will be easier to make a profit. Or larger profit. And if the costs of repair are less over the life of the tool- then again it will be easier to make a profit.

Unlike the government I do not have access to unlimited deficit financing, if I did this conversation would be mute. A tool that will not be used to the extent that it pays for itself is just a toy- a luxury item. For those out there that can have such toys- more power to you, someday I plan to be among your ranks ;)

Dan
11-26-2004, 06:18 PM
How come nobody is mentioning the BIG plus that the adjustable frequency (20-250 Hz) on the Dynasty 300 will provide for welding aluminum over the fixed output of the PT 275?

Engloid
11-26-2004, 06:37 PM
How come nobody is mentioning the BIG plus that the adjustable frequency (20-250 Hz) on the Dynasty 300 will provide for welding aluminum over the fixed output of the PT 275?

Good point...and the MUCH more adjustable arc balance control.

Brand X
11-26-2004, 07:18 PM
I think Planet X did?

I concede that Inverters yield superior welding control.

I would like to know who uses 250 hz on aluminum?
I guess there is some reason, but I have not really needed much more then 120 HZ. I have heard it is for using helium type mixed gases, to narrow the weld bead some.

I find some of the low freqs interesting for wetting a puddle out fast. :cool:

Bigger Valves
11-26-2004, 07:41 PM
Good point...and the MUCH more adjustable arc balance control.

AND independent current control. =]

Brand X
11-26-2004, 07:47 PM
AND independent current control. =]


I am sure that is the areowave only. It's not even a inverter.

shotgun
11-28-2004, 09:16 PM
Well, one thing that nobody touched on and this would really depend on the amount of time your machine is turned on per day, but in the case of my business partner who has his tig welder on 6 to 8 hours a day doing motorcycle fab he has made enough money going from a 375 lincoln to a Miller 300 dynasty in electrical costs alone to more than pay for the machine!!! some of the other pluses we have seen (doing the same work on both) is he no longer needs a 120 amp circuit--he can run the Dynasty on less than 60 amps. He can run both of his lathes and have someone welding .250 alum at the same time without blowing the brkr--no longer do the wires melt going from his welder connecting point on the far wall and he can weld for hours with allmost no heat in his gun and cables--you would have to try the same jobs with both machines to see what I am talking about--and the higher freqs make welding poor castings a everday common place rather than a chore!!!

Teeps
11-28-2004, 10:13 PM
Now we are talking something I understand, amps vs. $$

PT 375 = 375amps @ 40% for a cost of $ 4,425.00
PT 275 = 275amps @ 40% for a cost of $ 3,200.00
300 dx = 250amps @ 40% for a cost of $ 5,660.00

Just my .02

Getting more duty cycle out of a transformer type machine, (over the above mentioned duty cycles of the inverters) has no benefit to me, I don't know that having more duty cycle has more benefit to any hobbyist or home user. Your individual needs may dictate differently, but for the sake of most I feel this is not the case.

I just welded 24" length of steel, and I was no where even close to 1/4 of the duty cycle of my machine at max rating. At some point I plan to build a trailer, and I doubt I will have a problem working around a duty cycle then either.

I 99% of my welds only take 35 seconds or less. Even if I only had 20% duty cycle, I'm trying to imagine a circumstance where I'd actually have to weld for 2 minutes straight.

hmmm, I'll keep thinking.

Maybe the production setting has different demands, maybe eventually I could contrive a project where it might actually save me some time to have more duty cycle, but it's not that big of an inconvenience for that one project at all.

Good luck with your choice!!! If you can get what you need done, with a less costly method or machine, go for it. Some of that is in the skill/experience of the operator. However depending on the application, I can only guess that certain applications can benefit greatly from further adjustability. Imho, the reason for the higher price tag of the dx machines, is you get what you pay for, more features, more control, better welds, both functional quality, and appearance. Especially if your dealing with exotic metals, or even just regular AL, and stainless welding, it becomes more justifiable to go with an inverter machine with more adjustability.

Wether the operator would have the skill or knowledge / experience to take advantage of all these features is another question (I know I wouldn't have a clue, right out of the box, but that's what's great about these forums!!!)
I had no idea there could also be an energy savings over time.

Much thanks goes to the experienced guys who share here, and on the miller forum!!!

Just my .02!!!

-Don