Not getting penetration with stick (I think)

[tonyclifton]

I am still playing with my 110V 80 Amp AC arc welder and trying to learn a little bit before deciding to invest in a more robust AC/DC welder. Recent attempts on rebar have not provided strong welds - I can either break the weld by hand or wacks with the slag hammer starts to move the weld. I'm using 6013 rods in size 1/16 and have the amps cranked all the way up (it sticks if I don't). I'm doing simple things like welding end-to-end 90 degree angles or I made a little triangle for practive. I've read some online and wondering if I am not getting "penetration" and thus only producing superficial welds.

Also - is it OK to dunk the work in water to cool it off?

Thanks!

[Sberry]

Here is the biggest thing that will help. Open trash can, throw that welder in and save the next guy the same greif you are having with it.

[tonyclifton]

I came close last night, believe me. I would except welding rebar (or other small pieces) seems to be inline with the capabilities of this admittedly small welder. It has plenty of amps to burn 1/16 rod - and for now this is all I am trying to accomplish. I just want to be able to weld up junk really - just fooling around. I made a wreck anchor out of rebar and a pipe - ugly ugly UGLY welds but who cares? It is just going to rust up and get thrown in a muddy river. Thats all I'm trying to do - things that don't matter.

I guess I'm trying to confirm if "penetration" is something that applies in stick welding and if it sounds like I'm accurately diagnosing my problem with my weak welds. I do plan on getting a 230V AC/DC unit but am goign to take a few weeks to see if I can find a used one first. Dropping $350 on a new AC/DC unit (or $250 for an AC unit for that matter) is a significant investment but I'd be willing to do it if I thought I was getting the hang of it.

[Sberry]

You are viewing this in reverse,, you would get the hang of it with a machine that would work, it aint going to work the other way around. These machines are not a HUGE investment, screw looking and waiting for a used one, go right down and buy a new one and be done, spring for the AC/DC while you are at it. Some 1/8 6010 and some 7018 and go to it. By the way,, before you toss the other one,,, take a big freakin hammer and teach it a lesson. You will save some poor soul from salvaging it.

[Terry Lingle]

Rebar is a very poor steel to use for this excercise it really does not weld properly even under the best conditions.
another scrap steel to avoid is bed frame angle .
The best thing you can do If you must use this welder ( I agree with Cary's sentiments if not quite so violently) is get a few scraps of mild steel from a fab shop and try welding on it . At least then the composition of the parent metal won't interfere with the learning process.
Terry .

[Sberry]

I also agree with Terry on the steel. One thing about buying a good machine is that they last a LONG time. Stick welding doesnt look like it is going out of style anytime soon and machines dont become obsolete quickly like a computer would or depreciate like a new car. You could expect a lifetime of service from one. I have one that is 50 yrs old and works well, and I have one AC/DC, small one like you would get that is 20+ years and has had a LOT of use, works as good as the day it was new.

[tonyclifton]

Not sure if I will be ostracized for saying this but.... I want to weld rebar! My mom wants me to make her a garden trellis she saw somewhere and now I'm getting enthusiastic about making it and some other garden sculpture ideas I'm getting. This is really what is behind my new interest in welding...and then I start thinking about other projects too (like the boat anchor I made). I don't mind making crappy welds on rebar - just want it to stick together well enough to support it's own weight and whatever other manipulations I have to make on the sculpture/trellis.

[Sberry]

You can weld rebar for that type of stuff. The problem with welding it for real structural is that it is often an unknown quality.

[BillC]

Tony,

It is OK to dunk your practice welds to cool things off so you can weld more, but not anything you intend to keep...

From my experience, the 1/8 6013 rods don't have enough oomph to get good penetration on thicker steel like rebar. The mass of the steel just sucks all of the heat away from the weld. Better for something like sheet steel...

Regards,

[rjt70]

You could use this little welder for a boat anchor if you lose the one you made! I'm not sure I would trust this little thing to weld a trellis that might fall apart and hurt someone. As sad as it is, I see these little junk machines sell on Ebay every day. I think the same machines keep changing hands after the previous owner gives up on welding because he thought it was him/her that must be the problem. It's not, it's these stupid little welders that have no business being made in the first place. You can likely find a good deal on a well used AC/DC machine on Ebay or the Thrifty Nickel. Choose a 220/240 machine and be careful of what you buy here as well. There are some brand new 240 stick machines on Ebay that have a whopping 20% duty cycle! These are as crappy as the machine you have. Sorry to rant, but I hate to see people get discouraged because they were suckered into buying an electric door stop. You can get the old super sized Miller and Lincoln machines used fairly cheap if you have the power panel to handle them.

[Zrexxer]

Now, now... a low duty cycle doth not a poor welder make. The venerable old Lincoln tombstone that's still in production today has only a 20% duty cycle too, and that machine would be perfectly adequate for what he wants to do. In fact a lot of transformer stick machines have 20% duty cycles.

You have to remember that duty cycle is a (usually) linear relationship to ouput current. That machine with a 20% Duty Cycle rated at 225A might well run 70, 80% at 90A. Even if you DO need to run at 225A, you weld 2 minutes and cool 8.

Duty cycle in itself is not a reliable indication of how capable a welder is, unless you're running production welds, then it could be everything.

[Thomas Harris]

Get yerseff a 240 volt stick in AC/DC. Get some 6010 rods in 1/8 and have at some really nasty steel. These rods will let you burn right through your project if you so desire. They also have a way of burning all the scale/rust/paint etc. off better than most. (Watch what you breathe though) The beads from 6010 will be deep in penetration, but low in profile. You'll be able to cap them with a better looking rod for improved strength and looks if desired. 6010 is also a good rod for out of position work,(unless you're me, then nothing works). I had a 90 amp piece-o-chit craftsman wire feeder and sold it. If it were not for the tank thrown into the deal I'd feel bad for selling that boat achor. He did get a nice "M" size tank with it though. Sell your cheapo and put a few bucks in with the money and get a real welder.

[davesisk]

Hey, give this guy a break! A cheap welder is better than NO welder! :p

I have a little 80 amp inverter that I've used to do things like weld tabs made from 1/4" flat stock to a 1" x 2" front loader curl arm...worked fine (running it as hot as it would go with 3/32" 6013 rod...ran out of it's 40% duty cycle pretty quick however). I have an ESAB Heliarc and I've almost convinced myself that I "need" an MM210, so I might be selling this little guy soon. I hardly use it nowadays with the ESAB available. At one point, I thought I'd just keep it since it's 120V and very portable...but I have yet to actually take it anywhere or loan it to anyone, so there ya go...

That said, rebar is particularly difficult to weld for some reason (presumably it's composition as folks have noted). I had to take the TIG torch off the ESAB and attach the stick electrode holder...about 120 amps, near 100% duty cycle, and 1/8" 6013 electrodes did the trick.

I do agree with the other folks...if this is what you want to do, get a more powerful stick welder. You'll find that with more juice you have more control, can run bigger electrodes, get better penetration, and even get a nicer looking bead to boot. Someone on this board (check the products forums) is really happy with their Hobart Stickmate AC/DC, if I'm not mistaken. Those can be had for a few hundred dollars. (Check HarborFreight.com and some of the other cheap tool places for the best price.) I think some of the Lincoln stick machines have a really good reputation also, and are only a few hundred dollars. Check the 230V input requirements though...some may pull up to 50 amps from the wall!

If you can swing it, go ahead and get a machine that has DC output as well as AC (the cheapest units are AC output only). Both Stick and TIG use constant current power supplies, so if you develop an interest in TIG sometime in the future, you can add a TIG torch, regulator, and argon tank and do scratch start TIG (talk about some pretty welds!) if you've got DC output.

$400-500 over 20 years is nuthin...go for it. I agree with Sberry...you'll catch on much faster with a better machine.

Good luck,
Dave

[boilerman]

yep if i was you i go get a really welder and quit foolin with junk....you go makin them things and as always women got to hang stuff from it and they don't understand what weight is (i.e. plant vines and windchimes and them yard things)till they have it on themselves...now vision this ...you make it ...mom hangs stuff on it ....and it breaks ....now the stuff she hung on it is broke and she is mad
i think you'll have a better chance of talkin her out of a donation for a real welder now that she is happy cuz she is going to get lots of yard toys ...than later when she is in mourning over her broken wind chime that was hanging on something you welded

[davesisk]

Oh, one other note...while you're still using this 80 amp machine, get yourself some 3/32" electrodes (I think an 80 amp machine will run an electrode this thick OK...someone mentioned that 6010's get better penetration...check the specs on a few different rods). After you strike the arc and get it stabilized, push the electrode into the weld puddle...unless your machine has an awefully low duty cycle, you should be able to burn right into the rebar even with only 80 amps. Do this around all edges of the rebar. In fact, do a few practice runs and see if you can burn completely through the rebar by pushing the electrode into it...you should be able to.

HTH,
Dave

[Sberry]

His machine is AC, he might be able to run 3/32 6011. It runs at lower current than 6013. I aint really trying to bust his chops for the machine,, but I have never actually seen one of those work. I have seen several with a thick layer of dust where guys gave up. Seems I have even tried one or 2. They may work better with a 30A input wire ??? I spose if its wide open and you arent tripping a breaker its got all the current it will handle though. As far as a 50A circuit for a full size one,, thats not as dramatic as it sounds. Welding at this level with these type of machines is rather thrifty. An installation can be cheap depending on distance from a panel. I think the stickmate even comes with recept.

[tonyclifton]

I've tried using 3/32 but can't get it to arc - not sure of the type of 3/32 though

[davesisk]

Originally posted by tonyclifton
I've tried using 3/32 but can't get it to arc - not sure of the type of 3/32 though

Really? What machine are you actually using?

Dave

[Terry Lingle]

Originally posted by tonyclifton
I've tried using 3/32 but can't get it to arc - not sure of the type of 3/32 though

Tony it must be very clear now that this machine has limits on its performance due to the low available output. You must be sure to select rods that it can weld with. To do that you must understand rod characteristics and how they relate to actual performance. You should ask your welding supplier for a rod selecttion chart
You can also search the site for rod information then download a rod chart from this site.
Be aware that while the final weld properties of a given electrode should be within parameters the weldability (read machine and /or settings compatibility) can vary with different brands.
Terry

[SuperchargedS10]

i have a CLARK 95E 110v smaw. i bought it new on ebay for $60 + $15 shipping, not bad. and $30 in 5# 1/16" & 5# 5/64" rods.
i bought it just to learn smaw on. and i CANNOT upgrade to 220v, if i could i would have bought that in the first place.

this machine/class is for thin metal and thin rods. it CAN weld good. i have some butt welds that look great. and i have a very few T welds that look pretty good. but my problem is = most of the time, when welding anything except a butt, the weld goes to 1 and/or both pieces(to be joined), but doesn't joing them = gap = very frustrating. but i believe its my lack of experience, not the machine, that is the problem.

[Terry Lingle]

Originally posted by SuperchargedS10
i believe its my lack of experience, not the machine, that is the problem.


The only way to be certain that your tequnique is the problem is to try a better machine that has been properly set up using your rods. Visit a welding supplier and test drive a basic 200 amp ac/dc welder then you will see the difference in your results.

This is not an uncommon situation and the truth remains unchanged. These small welders are maxed out to weld anything.
An expreienced welder can get an acceptable weld because they know what should happen and how to make it happen, but a beginner gets problems he should never have then blames himself not his equiptment
Terry

[rjt70]

Supercharged, maybe try slowing your puddle down, or even a slight circular motion to get fusion where you say it only goes to one piece. Maybe you can post pics of your problem and some of us can try to offer advice based on the actual weld.

[cartwright]

Just bevel the sides of the joint, make a good root, and make multiple passes to fill it.

[Michael Albro]

6013 is a low penatrating rod used for thin steel. With an AC machine I would recamend E-6011 for a root and hot pass and cap with a E-7014;)

[BillC]

I think that we are getting off the mark here. If Tony's machine is like the inexpensive HF machines I have seen, he is lucky to get 50 OCV... All of the recommendations are great about 6011 and everything, but if the machine can't strike an arc then Tony can't weld. Tony probably can't get any rod to strike an arc except a low OCV 6013 rod.

Furthermore, the 1/16 6013 rod makes so little power that it just piles up on a thicker piece of steel. It just can't penetrate. You can make all the passes you want, but they are just building up on the surface, NOT penetrating...

Regards,

[dseman]

Originally posted by BillC
I think that we are getting off the mark here. If Tony's machine is like the inexpensive HF machines I have seen, he is lucky to get 50 OCV... All of the recommendations are great about 6011 and everything, but if the machine can't strike an arc then Tony can't weld. Tony probably can't get any rod to strike an arc except a low OCV 6013 rod.

Furthermore, the 1/16 6013 rod makes so little power that it just piles up on a thicker piece of steel. It just can't penetrate. You can make all the passes you want, but they are just building up on the surface, NOT penetrating...

Regards,

Yes,Yes,Yes, .....finally knowledge prevails!!!

The machine is not designed for anything more that 18ga-10ga. If Tony wants to weld anything else besides that, he needs to get a 225amp buzz box, be it either new or used. This is due to the limited amperage and limited OCV of his current machine.

-dseman

[SuperchargedS10]

Terry
yes, thats possible. but i think its me, as i have a few good welds with it. i just can't find the sweet spot consistently.

rjt70
i tried that, and it helped. i will post a pic soon.

[SuperchargedS10]

ok, here is a pic(kinda bad). see in the center, a niceish weld. while right next to it is a bead that liked to go to each side of the joint, but not really join them. i was using the circular motion on these. its thin square 5/8", .050ish.

[ice]

Try a Hobart Stickmate LX AC DC. your problems will disapear.

[Michael Albro]

These folks make a good point Tony , Your machine is to small for what you are tring to do. Even if your machine had a rectifier in it or should I say if it was a DC machine it would be little more than a battery charger. You need a larger machine

[Terry Lingle]

Originally posted by SuperchargedS10
ok, here is a pic(kinda bad). see in the center, a niceish weld. while right next to it is a bead that liked to go to each side of the joint, but not really join them. i was using the circular motion on these. its thin square 5/8", .050ish.

See the second part of my last post your picture is a classic example of a weld without enough power.
The one advantage? of these machines is that it is extreamly hard to blow holes in the work with them:o unfortunatly getting good penetration means getting to the edge of blow through on root pass or single pass welds
Terry

[welderallG]

Most guys are correct by telling you to smash the machine.Those machines are just put in grocery stores so dummies see them and buy them thinkin they are going to weld up the world with them in thier garage.6013 is not a good out of position rod for one thing contrary to it`s classification with the #1 meaning all position which it is not.60,000 tensile strength electrode 60X1000 and 1 is position.try a 6010-3/32" for penetration DCEP.Think of DCEP as Direct Current Electrode Positive as Positive Penetration then you will never forget.you can weld with 6010 or 6011 and for rebar that should be good enough.but also that piece of crap machine you have(no offensive intended) should not even be sold.7018 is normally used over top of a root deposit electrode such as 6010/6011 but it will be too much build up on a piece of rebar and is not needed to strengthen the root deposit.

[SuperchargedS10]

i found what much of my problem was/is today. for some reason this welder and/or rods are having a REAL hard time doing a T joint, i don't know why.

here is an example of what i did today. 10gauge flat and corner beads. yes, i know they don't look the greatest(i'm still learning, the rods are so thin that they wobble around easy, and hard to see the joint sometimes). but it shows that a 110v smaw can work. there is full penetration through most of those beads, and some parts of them beads look pretty good. 1/16 6013, for somereason my 5/64 rods didn't work well.

no, i'm not defending these cheap machines. from a consumer standpiont they shouldn't be made. and i bet 98% of them never get used because they are so difficult to use. but sometimes they do work. for anyone considering one of these 110v smaw's = DON'T , unless you CANNOT (like me) have a 220v machine.

[Sberry]

They do make a 120V stick machine that does work, Miller Maxstar, about 600$ though, runs on dual voltages, I would like one,, not that I need it though. Campbell Hausfield is coming out with somethng similar for about 300 or so but is limited to 85 A or so and I assume it will be 120V only though. It would be interesting to see if it works,, but I am leary. The Maxstar weighs in at 13 # or so, great piece of technolgy. I think Bill C has one and says it works well. It wont run 6010 but does 6011-13 and 7018, its DC too

[davesisk]

Originally posted by SuperchargedS10
for some reason this welder and/or rods are having a REAL hard time doing a T joint, i don't know why.


The reason you can do flat joints but not T-joints is because T-joints require more amperage...presumably more than the machine can produce. The greater metal mass in a T-joint sinks the heat quicker.

Just a thought on the lack of 220V power source. You can run a welder with reasonable current draw off of a 220V dryer circuit or kitchen stove circuit (usually 30 amps and 50 amps, respectively). You can make a 220V extension cord. Using a long cord is certainly less than ideal, but probably less so than your
current situation. Just a thought...

I would agree with the person who suggested that you go to a welding supply place and check out a good 200 amp range stick welder, even if you don't buy one. Take some of your stock with you, and try one or two machines out. Just using a good machine will be a eye-opening learning experience. Give it a shot!

Good luck!
Dave

Oh, one other thought that I wanted to add. If you have easy access to two 110V circuits that are wired to different sides of your breaker panel, you *could* make a cord that has two 110V plugs and a 220V socket to plug a 220V welder into. You can essentially turn two 110V circuits into one 220V circuit, and it should work fine. Use 30 amp circuits if you possibly can. Electricity comes into your house on 2 wires...2 hots that are 180 degress out of phase with each other and go one to each side of your breaker panel, plus a neutral line. Either hot plus neutral gives you 110V, both hots give you 220V. Ground is included for safety, and should be tied to neutral at the breaker panel. So, if you can find two conveniently placed hots that come from different sides of the panel, you've got a 220V circuit.

Do what works best for you, of course...I just want to make sure you know all your options.

HTH,
Dave

[SuperchargedS10]

thanx for the info, and concern. i live in a condo, and my garage is 200' away from the breaker. but thats not even the problem. the problem is the way the conduit is run in the garages. it goes to the first garage, then chains to the rest of them, mine is on the far end. i could snake wire to the first garage unit, but i couldn't get inside the unit to continue the circuit to my unit.
so, upgrading is all but impossible. i don't like living here, and a move to a house will be coming soon. i will buy a tig them.

Tony, are you getting anything from all this ?

[rjt70]

The lower bead in that pic looks to me like your travel speed was too fast. Try it again on flat and slw it down so the puddle widens a little. If you can find the Hobart Pocket Guide to Welding, it is an indespensible goto from the start. It costs like $6.00.

[JTMcCracken]

Rebar is welded every day, in seismic critical, structural applications.

AWS D1.4 is the welding code for rebar.

All grades of rebar are weldable, with preheat and other precautions.

A706 and Multi Grade A706/A616 are usually called out when a lot of welding is to be done, they usually don't require preheat or other special treatment. They are stamped with a W or a WS.


JTMcC.

[ice]

I`m not trashing your welder. Small buzz boxes have their place. I have two small 110 units. They are portable and light weight.
They are for very light duty welding.
From what i`ve seen, most manufacturers over rate the power of these small machines.

[enlpck]

I would recommend dumping the machine and beg, borrow, or earn the money for a maxstar150.

The machine you have won't run anything other than 6013 with any level of reliability (OK: if you can fine 1/16 7014 or 1/16 6011, you might get away with it....) If you MUST use this machine, preheat will help. A propane plumbers torch is sufficient for smaller and thinner material. Preheat reduces the ammount of energy needed from the arc to achieve melting of the material, and therefore to achieve fusion. Bringing the joint area to 300 deg Fahr. will often make a big difference. Also, the preheat reduces the cooling rate (as the metal around the weld is already hot and steals less heat from the weld) which can help as well, by reducing the tendancy for the weld to go brittle (slow cooling anneals the metal) geting you the most strength from what the machine will do.

SB: the maxstar 150 does a dandy job with 3/32 6010 on 120V. Also 7018. It will do 1/8 6010 on 120 on a good circuit. It has run everything I've thrown at it since I picked it up in may, except on one circuit with a very long run (a 240V run), where it won't do 1/8 6010.

[horseman1]

I got one of these welders for free as a prize :). Really. I could weld with it, but just barely. I really thought I was going about it all wrong. With multiple passes and being very careful with fitup and prep work I could get it to weld 1/8 inch steel. The only elctrodes that would work that I could find in 1/16 were 6010 and 6011.

Thats when I found this site. I read and learned enough to go out and get a HH 175 and have been very happy. That little welder was very frustrating. But it did teach me to use a grinder! I hope to get a 220V stick sometime to see what I was missing as far as the stick welding experience goes. You learn a lot about a mans disposition giving him a welder like that :).

Kurt

[tonyclifton]

I have been able to use my 120V Schumacher 80A welder to weld up the rebar good enough to complete some practice projects. Below is a tower/trellis for dear old Mom.

It took 1/16 6011 rod, cleaner grounding points and bare metal at weld points. Nothing ingenious - just simple welding principles I'm slowly learning. I do intend to get a more powerful welder but am surprised at the welds I have been able to accomplish the past week. For example I have welded several railroad spikes to various objects (mostly rebar) even though I was expecting this crappy welder to not have enough oomph. The welds withstood my standard strength test of being flung down the street out front. I have also welded some steel pipe and 5/16 galvenized bolts that withstood the 2 lb. sledge test. The more I learn the more I see the limitations but it hasn't been as bad as everybody said. Looking forward to finally making my decision on MIG vs. SMAW and getting a real machine.

http://images.snapfish.com/33%3B3477923232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E232%3B%3D774%3D%3A%3 A4%3DXROQDF%3E23235858%3A%3A588ot1lsi

Hmm...this site is doing something funny to my URL's when I post them...sorry, link doesn't work