tubing bender cart and what is makes [Archive]

Bob

12-17-2002, 07:21 PM

I like this bender.

I did see a "hausfeld 4" that looked like it had its own racheting air cylinder for mucho $.

The handle and air hose? make this look air-hydrolic. I get the physics, but can't understand the air part that looks to be below the oil part? How do you keep the oil from bleeding with the air?

Last pix looked like threads on wear points, probably OK the way used here.

Bend On, Bend On

Bob

ZACHV

12-17-2002, 08:48 PM

Yeah, the bender works pretty good for what it was designed for.

I was wondering about the positioning of the ram also. if you have more experience with such things would you recommend turning it the other way? And yes, it is air over hydraulic.

On the one pic with the mount you are correct about the threads. I was just testing different positions such as tilting the ram bottom down a little to see if it made any difference.

ryanevans

12-18-2002, 02:27 PM

Bob,

The way the air-over-hydraulic system works is that the air goes into the top part of the cylinder (the one with square end plates) pushes a piston down which has hydraulic fluid under it. The hydraulic fluid gets pushed out a small opening and the fluid comes in under the piston if the larger cylinder. By forcing the hydraulic fluid out a small opening, the air pressure is multiplied and pushes the piston on the larger cylinder outward. The air and hydraulic fluid never meet each other so you never have a air bleeding.

Bob

12-18-2002, 06:43 PM

Ryan,

Thanks, I learned something today. I did not realize there was a piston with seal(s) between the air and oil. Thinking of just one big (vertical) chamber with air on top and oil below.

Bob

morpheus

12-19-2002, 02:06 PM

looks good zach, I wish my ram would have come with a mount on the bottom of it like that. hopefully I'll get mine finished up this weekend and can post pics of how I mounted it.

my only concern about your ram mounting position is that it would seem you need more angle on the bender when the ram is pulled all the way in. this would require not mounting the ram hanging off the side of the tube but on top of the piece of tube. if you look on P4x4 a guy posted pics of how he mounted his. I'm pretty much duplicating what he did.

Edit: here's pics of the one I'm talking about:
http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbum.asp?userid=bluesman2a&album_id=110777

http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=bluesman2a&album_id=110777&image_id=18&param=32230

- jack

ZACHV

12-19-2002, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by morpheus
looks good zach, I wish my ram would have come with a mount on the bottom of it like that. hopefully I'll get mine finished up this weekend and can post pics of how I mounted it.

my only concern about your ram mounting position is that it would seem you need more angle on the bender when the ram is pulled all the way in. this would require not mounting the ram hanging off the side of the tube but on top of the piece of tube. if you look on P4x4 a guy posted pics of how he mounted his. I'm pretty much duplicating what he did.
- jack

Jack, thanks for the kind words. As to the angle, I looked into that and as long as the ram does not start out pushing directly into the bar you are OK. Plus, this way I can get a 90 degree bend in one stroke with my 1 1/4" die!
Also, I just bought a garage door spring yesterday at HD and I will be mounting that on Saturday for the return activation. I feel that I have enough "feel" and control of the relieve valve to be able to feel the springback. I'll let you know how it comes out.

morpheus

12-20-2002, 07:28 AM

cool zach. having enough angle to where you weren't directly into the bending arm was my concern and why I'd assumed the others mounted theirs the way they did. is the pic with the one bolt how you ended up mounting it ?

- jack

ZACHV

12-20-2002, 08:51 AM

No, I was just using that end lowered to fill the ram. I am using it with the tabs of the ram on either side of the plate, if that makes sense. Basically, the ram is perfectly level.

morpheus

12-20-2002, 10:04 AM

ok. I understand how you've mounted it.

I must admit for my taste your mounting method is kinda
"light weight" given the potential force the ram is capable of.

- jack

ZACHV

12-20-2002, 10:24 AM

Yeah, I was somewhat concerned about that, but it is 3/8" thick plate and after bending all day on Saturday both 1 1/4" and 1 3/4" .120 wall tube it did not show any deflection or bending AT ALL. I don't believe in major overkill when not warranted. To me, as long as something accomplishes what it was designed to do it can be as light as it can be.

morpheus

12-20-2002, 10:45 AM

that's cool ... i'm a computer nerd not an engineer of any sort so most things I do end up overbuilt :D

good luck with it. hopefully I can put something together for mine this weekend.

- jack

Farmer

12-21-2002, 05:00 AM

Zachcv you have an looking impressive machine. Where do you buy such a unit? I have looked on the HF site as well a Northern tools with out any luck. I am using a horizontal 16 ton unit at this time. I think the model you are using would serve me better.

ZACHV

12-21-2002, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Farmer
Zachcv you have an looking impressive machine. Where do you buy such a unit? I have looked on the HF site as well a Northern tools with out any luck. I am using a horizontal 16 ton unit at this time. I think the model you are using would serve me better.

This unit was purchased by the actual company that makes them. Their name is JD Squared (http://www.jd2.com) The bender makes nice bends without much distortion, much less than the pipe benders from Harbor Freight.

There are other vendors who sell the JD2 bender and there is a company that makes one very similar, Pro Tools (http://www.pro-tools.com) .

If you have any further questions please feel free to ask.

bluesman2a

12-21-2002, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by morpheus
if you look on P4x4 a guy posted pics of how he mounted his. I'm pretty much duplicating what he did.

Edit: here's pics of the one I'm talking about:
http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbum.asp?userid=bluesman2a&album_id=110777
http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=bluesman2a&album_id=110777&image_id=18&param=32230

You know there isn't anything quite as heady as logging onto one of your favorite fab sites and seeing somebody ELSE post your work... :D :D :D

Thanks for the exposure Morpheus, but I gotta say I cribbed the basis of the idea from POR4X4 myself, and just added a few items to suit the available materials I had. I also used it as the maiden project for my Spectrum 325 Plasma (notice the nice big tool trays cut).

Since those pictures I've also added some legs (out of 1.5" square tube bent to 60* angles) and some bracing (1.5" angle) for the legs. Finally, lopped off the top/sides on the opposite end for a better deck to mount the tubing notcher on.

Casters will finish the project, but I'm waiting on the electrical for the new 251 before I do anything else.

morpheus

12-22-2002, 09:51 AM

hey bluesman, how many degrees can you get on one shot the way you've got it mounted ?

- jack

bluesman2a

12-22-2002, 12:44 PM

the most I have currently gotten was about 85... I think it will do better (90 would be ideal), but like keeping the ram on the short side.

ZACHV

02-02-2003, 08:02 PM

new stuff fabricated:

ZACHV

02-02-2003, 08:04 PM

ZACHV

02-02-2003, 08:06 PM

last one

ChadRat

02-03-2003, 10:18 AM

Zach, looks really clean. Good Job!

bluesman2a

02-03-2003, 12:22 PM

Looks good Zach, just out of curiosity, what degree bend are you using on those? Looks like 20-30*? Any gotchas, tips, or secrets you'd like to share for those of us who may be following in your footsteps?

ZACHV

02-03-2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by bluesman2a
Looks good Zach, just out of curiosity, what degree bend are you using on those? Looks like 20-30*? Any gotchas, tips, or secrets you'd like to share for those of us who may be following in your footsteps?

Actually, they are bent to 45 degrees while under pressure on the bender. I am not sure of the spring back, but probably like 5 degrees or so. I have made a jig for my bandsaw to cut the ends after being bent so that they are exactly square. Basically, it just holds the tube parallel to the blade and has a notched slide hole to adjust the distance from the blade.

For "gotchas" I have learned to not try to make the bend less than than 35-40 degrees because it is hard to properly weld the inside portion of the tube if there is too little of an angle. Other than that they are pretty basic and a great place to hone welding skills. My beads are looking gorgeous these days and I think I have it down pretty good now. I had a guy and his buddy jumping up and down on one after he installed them with no problem.:cool: Must have looked funny, though!

Thanks for the kind words.

Arc Burn

02-03-2003, 06:40 PM

Zach,whats a unit like that run for?what capacity does it have?Who sells decent pipe benders?sorry for all the questions as i'm kinda of a pipe "idiot" i do a lot of welding and would like to work with pipe and the proper tools!Nice stand,good luck with it.

ZACHV

02-03-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Arc Burn
Zach,whats a unit like that run for?what capacity does it have?Who sells decent pipe benders?sorry for all the questions as i'm kinda of a pipe "idiot" i do a lot of welding and would like to work with pipe and the proper tools!Nice stand,good luck with it.

Actually, the unit shown is from JD2, but I have a buddy who just started carrying a better brand for less money, made byPro-tools (http://www.pro-tools.com) . I wish he carried them when I bought mine. I have a little over $1000 into my setup, but that includes three die sets for different size tube. I can bend up to 2" OD round tube or 1 1/2" square tube. If you are looking for just a pipe bender check Harbor Freight, they sell a manually operated hydraulic unit that works OK on pipe for under $100.

Good luck.

bluesman2a

02-03-2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by ZACHV
For "gotchas" I have learned to not try to make the bend less than than 35-40 degrees because it is hard to properly weld the inside portion of the tube if there is too little of an angle.

Ancient Chinese secret: I keep my little 135 Amp welder set up for flux core. You can't beat the smaller tip with no hood in tight spaces like that. For even smaller spaces you can tape up the tip so it won't ground out on the material. Not as clean as MIG, but effective in small spaces.

Also, any chances of seeing the jig you have set-up for the band saw? I'm starting to see the drawbacks of a cold-saw and think a band saw may be in my future.

dysfunction

02-04-2003, 10:42 PM

Okay, I'll dissent and announce that I still prefer pulling by hand. Especially for one offs. I just don't feel I have the control with a ram as I do with a handle. It's a little busy, but here's the last thing I bent (well part of it at least)

cage half (http://thisdysfunctional.org/kids/album26/DSC00110.jpg)

part deux (http://thisdysfunctional.org/kids/album26/DSC00142.jpg)

d110pickup

02-05-2003, 05:54 AM

Dysfunction,
Do you see any safety issues with building the cage that way?
How is the top and bottom connected?
I see some advantages to useing this method. You can weld all around the joint without burning the interior, tubing can be cleaned and painted before installation. Even if you sleeve and weld the two halfs together you've only got to paint that small section.
Thanks, that's a good idea.
Mike Pado

dysfunction

02-05-2003, 12:31 PM

The joint between the two was actually cut out of the finished piece (left the kerf width long) then sleeved externally. There's 4 bolts on each connection as you can see here (http://thisdysfunctional.org/kids/album26/DSC00141.jpg) . Basically this solved a couple big problems for me on this cage. The person I built it for wanted it to be removable, well.. not many ways to do that. Especially in the tight quarters of a pickup cab. As far as strength goes, I believe that it's comparable to a welded cage in that every joint does get fully welded. I picked up the idea from SCCA cages.

mike

bluesman2a

02-05-2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by dysfunction
Okay, I'll dissent and announce that I still prefer pulling by hand. Especially for one offs. I just don't feel I have the control with a ram as I do with a handle.

I'll agree with you... to a point. Yes it is easier with a handle to factor in spring-back and "feel it" (i.e. bend, relax, measure, rebend if necessary). BUT with the air over hydro ram like I have it's slow enough to allow for micro adjustments. The only issue I've had is the spring-back and once you get a feel for the material you can guage that pretty easy.

I've said it before, but my main reason for going hydro is so I could make it portable (no place for good/permanent mounting). it's nice now in that it's almost a one-man setup with hydro (again, depending on material).