030 or 035?

[wingnut1969]

hi everyone i'm new to this board....my question is why does hobaart reccomend using 035 wire for thicker steel such as 1/4 inch?

[Sberry]

Output of the machine is related to the speed and size of the wire. Bigger wire = more power= better fusion.

[Aaron]

Same reason electrical codes require larger wires for higher amperage circuits. Larger conductors can carry higher currents.

Translated into welding, running any wire above it's recommended range will result in high amounts of splatter as the wire transitions into globular transfer.

Another factor to consider: A given volume of wire must be deposited to the joint. Smaller wire means faster wirespeed to obtain similar results.

[Aaron]

By the way, welcome to the forum, wingnut. :D :cool:

[wingnut1969]

ok cool thanks guys..........so 035 is bigger wire than 030.......i thought it was like metal 22 gauge is smaller than 16gauge
higher the number smaller the metal type thing

thank for the welcome:D

[Aaron]

Actually, the .030 is referring to the .030" diameter of the wire.

[Roger]

I'll add generally the larger diameter wire cost less per pound. So if .030 or .035 will both handle range of metal expected to weld equally the bigger wire wins on cost.

[Don F]

Do you get better penetration with the smaller wire vs the larger with the correct settings on the machine for each wire type? I have been using .030 and switched to .035 (on MM175) and I like the performance of the smaller wire. Just curious newbie question.

Thanks

[dee]

Originally posted by Don F
Do you get better penetration with the smaller wire vs the larger with the correct settings on the machine for each wire type? I have been using .030 and switched to .035 (on MM175) and I like the performance of the smaller wire. Just curious newbie question.

Thanks

Sometimes yes. It depends on the design of the power supply. If all settings are "right" and similarly optimized, large wire will cause more BTU input (it's linked to amperage) and deeper penetration, along with more depositd metal per minute and more heat issues like distortion and risk of burn through if the electrode isn't matched to the job.

what is it you like about the 030 more than the 035?

[Roger]

This wire chart from welding 101 link in above header shows should use .035 or .045 for welding 1/4" steel. .030 is under sized for the job. As HH175 setting chart shows welder at max setting the welder is probably a little under sized for optimum welding of 1/4" steel. Might get a little better penetration with flux-core wire.

http://www.hobartwelders.com/images/diagram4.gif

[Don F]

Dee,
I guess it is just the look of the weld and how much easier it was for me to control the .030 vs .035. I have pretty much learned and used only the .030 and my .035 was just experimenting one afternoon. I have some heavier material that I am going weld on soon and thought the .035 would be better. I didn't do any cutting on the welds with .035 or any looks at the penetration. I just feel more confident with my .030 I have been running around 20 cu ft of gas with .030 Do I need to increase the gas flow with the .035? I am sure as a newbe that in another year the .030/.035 comfort will be a non-issue.

Roger,
My MM175 chart says I can even use .024 for 1/4" material but the volts / wire speed is wide open.

I guess I picked the .030 because it was in the middle for everything on the MM175 chart settings for material to be welded with C25.

[Roger]

Someone posted a few years ago their welding school instructor said would get better penitration with .024 wire on 1/4" . Really not logical and makes me wonder why they would make all the thicker wires if that was true.:D
I'm 1/4" steel can be welded with .024 wire but that doesn't make it right.

Hobart came out with new setting chart in manual more than a year ago. Down load current manual and see if the settings are any better. http://www.hobartwelders.com/owners_manuals/

[Don F]

I downloaded the Hobart manual. The voltage is wide open on both the MM and Hobart charts for 1/4" It looks like they shifted down the settings when the elininated the .024 wire for 1/4" material.

Maybe it's because of the two different designs, center tap vs infinate voltage control between Hobart and Miller that the different the different recomendations for wire are shown.

I haven't done any testing with penetration of the .030 vs .035 on 1/4 but my very limited expereince with the two different wires leads me to believe I surely won't suffer using the .030 for 1/4"

Anyone else done some testing? I suppose it will also be machine specific results.

[Sberry]

I have used lots of 030 on 1/4 but its really too small in most cases. If I was going to make a steady diet of it I would go to bigger wire for sure. I do like 030 in those size machines as it gives great control on thin materials.

[dee]

Originally posted by Roger
Someone posted a few years ago their welding school instructor said would get better penitration with .024 wire on 1/4" . Really not logical and makes me wonder why they would make all the thicker wires if that was true.:D
I'm 1/4" steel can be welded with .024 wire but that doesn't make it right.

Hobart came out with new setting chart in manual more than a year ago. Down load current manual and see if the settings are any better. http://www.hobartwelders.com/owners_manuals/

Roger & Don...
There is a post describing exactly what takes place during the transfer process, I think the post implies a spray transfer topic, but the problem is that with too large a wire for the [undersized] power supply the necessary energy simply does not exist. Think of current density as the amps per square inch of cross-section of teh electrode... you have greater current density across an 030 electrodethan you would with an 035 wire... you get what is often communicated as a hotter arc on the same machine settings with the thinner wire; flux core is a hollow electrode and the current density is a bit more complicated to compute on a section of tube than a section of solid wire, but the concept is still the same... Part of this same dip transfer phenomenon is what makes a household "fuze" melt and do it's job. Look at the amperages for the "heat", and it should make more sense.

I'm trusting what I read a the power source is maxed-out with the 035. Use multiple pass techniques if you must, flux core if you can handle the smoke, but if you're thinking of the penetration and fusion issues as counter-intuitive the logic is focused on the wrong details of what youre observing. It really does make a lot of sense when you identify where this "heat" is coming from.

[Roger]

Current density, I just figure the small welder at max output is lacking volts for what would be optimum with bigger welder and thicker wire.

So using current density theory using smaller .030 or .035 wire helps 175 amp MIG welder get enough penitration welding 1/4. Hope your not buying into using .024 1/4".

[dee]

Originally posted by Roger
Current density, I just figure the small welder at max output is lacking volts for what would be optimum with bigger welder and thicker wire.

So using current density theory using smaller .030 or .035 wire helps 175 amp MIG welder get enough penitration welding 1/4. Hope your not buying into using .024 1/4".

If you are using a welder with less power than a domestic toaster (toasters figure about 1300-1500 Watts) you may actually have to go to a "real" welder otherwise the option becomes "do what you gotta do" as far as I can see it. As welder power diminishes, so must the electrode diameter. In that respect, under unusual conditions, I guess I'm buying into the thinner wire argument if I gotta play MacGuyver.

I have already invested in the "bigger welder" argument... it's been a very long time since I have had any of those problems which I worked hard to avoid. As you are discovering (I think, according to how I understand what I'm reading) even your [3500W ?] 170 may be a little smaller than you'd prefer. (I think the right place to be in single phase GMAW power is 250A unless you can deal with limitations)

It's not the flux in a fluxcore wire doing some strange voodoo to make the weld fuze better, (actually to a slight degree it does insulate the weld pool under certain circumstances), its the hollow electrode section that makes it behave to a great degree like a thinner wire; it IS as far as the electricity can tell.

I WAS TAUGHT that the voltage control adjusts the OCV and weld volts, as well as current... the feed control adjusts the rate of wire feed, as well as current... Amperes translate to heat and that voltage is the variable which changes arc length, but I doubt voltage can be adjusted independently from Amperage in most of the power supplies we're likely to encounter here.

I'll try to find,and edit in the link to the other thread... here it is:

Try half-way down on the first page where short-arc transfer is concisely described in my my remark to metaljunkie1025

http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/showthread.php?threadid=5344&perpage=20&pagenumber=1