Anvil face Restoration

[mudbug]

I have a very old anvil that is totally destroyed that my Grandfather gave me when I was 4-5 years old because I thought it made a good pony.

It's been laying around the farm for over 60 years and I thought I'd attempt to "fix" it since it's doubtful I could hurt it and I might actually bring it back to some level of usefullness with some luck.

The heel was snapped off long before I ever saw it and the face resembles a mushroom instead of anything close to flat.

I considered making a new face from a piece of railroad rail (inverted and using the base flange) and just attaching it to the main body,but I found 10# of the following hardfacing electrodes for a bargain price and might attempt to restore the face after building and attaching a "new" heel to the main body.

Diamend 500 1/8"

"Arcos Alloy Corp
Surfacing filler iron chromium alloy
C 0.4
Cr 3.5
Mn 1
Mo 0.5
Si 0.6
bal Fe
Welded 55HRC
For hardfacing electrodes:martensite steel to withstand severe abrasion, heavy impact"

After doing a bit of searching here there seem to be many that understand hardfacing better than most places online so hopefully I can gain some additional knowledge from those that know the process and care to share.

The heel was probably forge welded to the main body and had to endure some serious abuse if the condition of the face is any indication. It snapped off in a fairly straight fashion flush with the main body. I'll have to make a heel and then re-attach it to the body as a first step.

The face was probably forge welded to the main body as well,but it more closely resembles an Armadillo's back now both in shape & texture...:(

The rod above probably can't stand more than a couple of passes so I'll probably need to at least build-up the edges with another rod before attempting to layer a hardfacing surface over the old face remains and the new heel structure to tie it all together for a new face surface.

I have not determined what the main body material is yet... forged iron or cast... I'll have to do a considerable amount of grinding to bring the main body back into shape.

I just wanted to get some discussion started about the above hardfacing electrodes and any suggestions about it's application especially what might be required for build-up of the main body so the hardfacing rod doesn't just fall off when struck.

I know this application is different than laying hardfacing material along the wear edge of a dozer blade,but from reading other posts I'm betting someone has some educated thoughts on this project.

My original thought of attaching a new face plate on top of this body may have been the smartest and easiest way to "fix" this,but I've got $5000 worth of welders setting around the shop... I ought to be able to "fix" this....LOL:)

Any thoughts on this greatly appreciated... BTW... I've been researching this for over a month online. When I search now I'm getting my own conversations as links as well as numerous Blacksmith threads. I'm learning a bunch:D

[mikecwik]

any chance of (having it ground) grinding it? i dont know if its a good idea but its the first one that i had.

[mudbug]

LOL... I doubt that would help Mike.

This thing was totally destroyed long before I was born. With the heel broken off flush with the main body and lost over 65 years ago and the top face being abused to the point of resembling a bullet that had been fired into an oak tree and then dug out and stood on end it'll require way more than a grinding.

I need to get a picture of this and post it... Most everyone would say "why bother?"

As I stated before this is a personal project with no time restraints as well as an exercise in attempting to fix something that appears to be beyond help for the learning of the processes involved to "fix" it.

I've spent over a month researching online finding out this is much more involved than I first thought,but the challenge while substantial isn't going to prevent at least trying. I wouldn't do this for money...it's doubtful it would be rational to do so, but for myself on my time to learn it will be worth the effort.

[Wyoming]

You might try sending an e-mail to Ernie Leimkuhler by clicking the 'e-mail' link on his homepage. Can't say what sort of reply you may get, but it''s worth a try as the guy has either repaired or made quite a few anvils over the years.

http://www.stagesmith.com/Metal-links.html

[mudbug]

I may just do that. At any rate that's a massive resource page and I "Thank You" for sharing it'll be helpful for other things as well..:)

[mudbug]

From reading several Blacksmithing threads on the subject it seems that the suggested method involves using Stoody 1105 rods as a build-up rod and then Stoody 2110 rods as the hardfacing finish layers....

My issue with that thinking is the Stoody 1105 rod specifically states it's NOT for cast iron application... which is what most old anvil bodies are made of..... I'm thinking there needs to be a "buttering" layer of some sort of Nickel rod applied to the main body BEFORE attempting to apply a hardfacing layer or two to finish the face.

This would mean the build-up to almost level would be with Nickel rods and then layering the hardfacing to that layer to prevent the layers from de-laminating from the cast base material that most old anvils are made of.

I've discovered that Stoody makes hardfacing mig wire in .035 but at $200 for 10# it's a bit steep.:) I've also found that using mig wire to hardface an anvil changes the application procedures around quite a bit over stick electrodes. The wire method is far simpler...just much more costly...:(

[vicegrip]

Almost no old American avils are Cast.
Wrought-Iron my friend. Eventually some Swedish Cast steel in the 1900's.

Cast iron would be cheap Chinese.

[mudbug]

Sorry my mistake...Too many variables bouncing around while researching. I ment to say wrought-iron,but in any case what would you suggest as far as an underlayment/filler rod before laying on the hardface ?

Like I stated I may cut a piece of rail and invert it and weld it to the body. This might be best considering the heel is broken off and this method would allow a new flat surface along the entire face.

[vicegrip]

Wrought Luvs anything that is ferous. AC / DC it don't care, bet it would welcome stainless.

Boy get a pack of 420 stainless Tig filler, and make a dandy stainless anvil,
that ought to stand up to Vulcan himseff'.

As for rail, can you host a pic of your candidate? With somthing in the pic
to give a sence of scale? Might take so much weld you would anneal the track's surface.
Phil

[walker]

With an anvil that abused I would not worry too much about specialty rods. Cut a heel out of A-36 and weld it to the body using 7018. Do any build up with 7018. You can even use 7018 to fill in the top. It will work harden enough to be a very serviceable anvil. Hardface if you like, but it is not necessary. Alot of old anvils have wrought iron top, sometimes with a forge welded tool steel face, that is forge welded to a cast steel base. All weldable with 7018. Just remember that an anvil is ONLY for hitting HOT iron on. No cold steel!

[mudbug]

That's sorta why I was asking about the rods I listed in my first post. I have no intention of paying $200 for another type rod to fix this lump... I could buy an anvil for that much cash.

You're the second person to suggest 7018,but general opinion is it's not going to hold up under hammering even if it's hardfaced. I wouldn't have thought that would be the case and that was my initial idea too.

I'll have to do some grinding on the anvil (after I take some pics) and continue researching and looking for materials & rods to fix it somehow in the mean time. Once I get everything assembled I'll just do whatever is needed with whatever is available and hope for a satisfactory end result.

I have 7018 and even some 9018 that I picked up somewhere.... I'll just keep moving toward repairing it and see what happens.:D

[Blacksmith]

I had to think about it and checked my guild's archives. I couldn't find anything in writing, but I'll be the third one to say just use 7018. Lay a couple of courses tightly and grind it smooth. I've also heard that it will work harden somewhat with use.

[vicegrip]

I had to think about it and checked my guild's archives. I couldn't find anything in writing, but I'll be the third one to say just use 7018. Lay a couple of courses tightly and grind it smooth.
I've also heard that it will work harden somewhat with use.

You really need a helper to do this correctly.
The "work-hardening" is acheived not in use, but when you weld.
Put a bead down 5 to 6 times it's width in lenght.
Your helper needs to peen the weld as rappidly and uniformly as possible
working with overlapping strikes in the same direction the bead was welded.* * *

As soon as the last hit is done and the hammer is back you continue.
The next row of beads is welded about 30% over the prior row.
the bead needs to be more flat than mounded.

The complete layer is the gone over at least once more with a needle-peener.
Repeat with a second layer. Now ruff-grind it to the uniform shape desired.
If one of you is accurate enough..... now peen the entire surface again
with a hammer that has a much larger radius on it.
Strikes are deliberate and overlapping in both lenght and width.

Final grind or draw-file to perfection.
* * * Initial peening is done with a small ball-peen hammer.
vg

[mudbug]

Thank You gentlemen.... I'm a good student and paying close attention...The drawing showing your description VG proves that phrase "a picture is worth a 1000 words":)

[vicegrip]

...The drawing showing your description VG proves that phrase "a picture is worth a 1000 words":)

I spent 5 years in an intence R&D department.
Enter a couple engineers, a few designers, and a team of fabricators and machinists.
The key to very productive brainstorming is a large dry erase board on the wall
and lots and lots of colored markers. Bring in a sales guy and a field-tech or two.........

the colors flow, the ideas flow, most spoken sentences are interupted before they are completed.
Its shear FUN,

PS:
I have a theory that the reason many meetings are so unproductive
is sitting around a table following pricipals of order and politeness
quells mental and creative activity.

Standing, all basicly facing a big work-board brings out an animated, active, driven
mind-play....... almost sportish.
VG

[walker]

BTW, I did some blacksmith work at a commercial place a while back. The anvil that I had to work on there was in rough shape, with big chunks missing. I filled them with 70s-6 mig wire and it worked fine as well. Don't over think this too much, it is essentially a big chunk of metal to hit other lesser chunks of metal on. Just make sure that whatever chunk of metal you weld on for a heel has been veed out so that you get 100% fusion, then fill weld with stringers of 7018. Even if you just lay on the 7018 and grind flat it will work harden on its own over time.

[canoecruiser]

I spent 5 years in an intence R&D department.
Enter a couple engineers, a few designers, and a team of fabricators and machinists.
The key to very productive brainstorming is a large dry erase board on the wall
and lots and lots of colored markers. Bring in a sales guy and a field-tech or two.........

the colors flow, the ideas flow, most spoken sentences are interupted before they are completed.
Its shear FUN,
VG

This is EXACTLY right! About 20 yrs. ago I was on a design team for a new product intended to be sold and used globally. We were hotshots and "really knew our stuff", you could say a bit full of ourselves. Our design was the greatest! Then we brought in field-service and training people and they pointed out that we needed to change the front panel layout since none of us all-knowing engineers spent hours in an equipment shelter using similar products. We didn't even consider the racks it went into. Front panel 2.0 happened before the design was released to Manufacturing. That product is still being sold today, albeit in smaller numbers.

It would have been DOA otherwise.

The project engineer said later the productiveness of the meetings was directly proportional to how loud and "spirited" the discussion got. I still smile thinking about it.

[canoecruiser]

Vicegrip you need to write your memoirs ;). That hard-won knowledge should be passed on when us old pharts are gone....

[Blacksmith]

I have a theory that the reason many meetings are so unproductive
is sitting around a table following pricipals of order and politeness
quells mental and creative activity.

Standing, all basicly facing a big work-board brings out an animated, active, driven
mind-play....... almost sportish.
VG

Three of us were sent to a manufacturer's plant to solve a vexing oil seal problem on a piece of high speed equipment. The final CAD drawing of the oil stripper blade that solved the problem is essentially a copy of the drawing we made on a Holiday Inn napkin at breakfast.

[vicegrip]

Three of us were sent to a manufacturer's plant to solve a vexing oil seal problem on a piece of high speed equipment. The final CAD drawing of the oil stripper blade that solved the problem is essentially a copy of the drawing we made on a Holiday Inn napkin at breakfast.

Man I'm with you guys on this. Even the bit about [" We were hotshots and "really knew our stuff",
you could say a bit full of ourselves. Our design was the greatest!"]

The fild guys Loved us, because we anticipated their needs, by listening closely evertime they returned.
The stuffed shirts, and cubical condiments, hated us because the best thing they could do
was stay out of the way. Some of them even would look for opportunities to obstruct our outcomes.
==============
Canoe, I've often pondered some venture that could be constantly added to. BUT in truth
it would have to be profittable enough to replace my Income. I'm simply not productive enough
to handle that kind of effort. Just imagine once others started to contribute, the administration involved.

This very week-end I'm absolutely exausted, from the last two weeks effort at work.
I took out two bags of trash and went for carry-out. Been on my a$$ the rest of the day.
I made an attachment for our horizontal boring bar, it cuts serious grease-grooves in very large
hardened steel bushings. The boss is thrilled, so I reminded him about that HTP 221 I been asking for.
I wouldn't dare post my pics, as the competician could easilly copy my design.
Thanks Guys

[usmcpop]

I am very happy with my old anvil. It is pretty smooth on the face but has a swayback in it of about 3/8". I'm thinking it was a fairly tough steel face on some sort of wrought iron base, though I've never bothered to check into it. It weighs about 160 lbs. My brother gave it to me. I think he bought it for $35. It'll do.

[mudbug]

I must agree I'm probably "over thinking" this thing... I thought I had it all figured out a couple of weeks ago and then found the hardfacing electrodes for cheap and started thinking all over again...LOL

I'm going to tackle grinding on this 'Ol boy and doing a bit of reshaping and then see where I stand on "fixing" it up.

This is what I get for hanging out with a new friend that makes armor. Being around his shop and watching gave me tool envy. He does some excellent work and was even doing some brass castings for decorations on the helmets. I've always had a latent desire to have a forge and beat metal and being around it lately just sorta pushed the envelope.:D

Where the heel snapped off flush with the main body looks like strands of pulled pork so I'm guessing the heel was forge welded onto the main body... I'll have to search a friends 5 acre scrap yard for something to repair the heel and then weld it into place.

I knew there were several lurking about with knowledge about how to tackle this project...I'll keep you all updated on my progress. I need to take some pics of the anvil and will do so before I start grinding on it...Thanks...Dave

[usmcpop]

Where the heel snapped off flush with the main body looks like strands of pulled pork so I'm guessing the heel was forge welded onto the main body...

I'm a vegetarian, so I don't know much about pulled pork. But if I had to guess, I would say the stranding had to do with wrought iron and the layers of Iron and slag that compose that. I do have some old steel that looks stranded, but some of the really old stuff I've found in the woods is even better.

[Blacksmith]

Still thinking this over. (Sitting home with some painkillers after a hip replacement). All the hard facing electrodes I ever saw produced a somewhat rough crackly finish. Very wear resistant, but not very smooth. You need smoothness in an anvil face; it's essentially a bottom die and every piece you hammer on it will show and inverse pattern of the face. One of the first things you learn as a beginning blacksmith is to not strike the face or use a chisel, etc. on the face (that's what the step or a saddle is for). The next thing I learned was how to grind out all the divots in the anvil face from learning.

[vicegrip]

All the hard facing electrodes I ever saw produced a somewhat rough crackly finish. Very wear resistant, but not very smooth. You need smoothness in an anvil face; it's essentially a bottom die and every piece you hammer on it will show and inverse pattern of the face.

Good point but the cause is not the electrodes.
Several things contribute to this outcome.
1, Beads too far appart & allowed to mound too much.
2, Some then add another layer, laying these beads in the channels formed by the first layer.
3, Assuming a correct 1/3 bead overlap and good wider flatter beads;
many don't allow for the parishable metal that needs to be removed.
{that is to say} the uniformity of the weld quallity is better closer to the center
or the top layer of beads. So nearly half of that layer needs to be removed (it perishes).
Peen & remove 1/4 layer ...... now peen with a hammer with large gentle radius.
Now remove the second 1/4 layer. Optional step is a final light peen with very deliberate
fine step-over. Then draw-file or stone to suit.

EDIT:
Additioally a rod that is designed to simply build-up ware surfaces, like on a loader-bucket or a plow,
is gonna harden up plenty just in the welding. So the differential effect will be greater proportionally
to how cold the anvill is when welded. Preheat will make for a more uniform job.
BUT a work-hardening electrode is the better choice, if you can do a good peening job.
Phil

[mudbug]

LOL...As laid the beads wouldn't work so well for an anvil... They need to be laid in rows and then between the rows and then the surface needs to be ground flat... MOST Hardfacing rods can be applied with 2-3 passes SOME only one & others numerous passes.

I was expecting someone to be familiar with the rods I bought and maybe give some direction as far as number of layers that could be applied...I'm only guessing at a couple of layers for now until I find out the facts on these particular rods.

This is about as detailed a tutorial as I could find...

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/anvil1/anvil2.html

With progress pictures to illustrate how it was done...