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CFRacing
05-25-2011, 10:34 PM
Are these welders ANY good or are they just some chinese POS? looking at a 200 amp tig/stick/plasma combo machine. I don't care for the plasma part because I already have a nice plasma rig, but I do want a 200 amp tig machine. Says it comes with tig torch, stinger, ground, foot pedal, regulator, some consumables and a 3 year warranty.

If I need to steer clear just let me know.

urch55
05-25-2011, 11:09 PM
Everlast <<< maybe >>> Longevity...If indeed the same company there was a guy who did a "demo" on youtube. The longevity 3 in 1 machine was bought and he used a 8-10 pound sledge hammer for the "demo".
I would not waste my money on something that's questionable for a over seas product like that. Buy USA and get a good warranty.
{{{{{ STEER CLEAR }}}}}

Tritium
05-26-2011, 12:26 AM
There are those who love Everlast and those who hate it. There are those who love Longevity and those who hate it. There are those who Love Miller and Hobart and Lincoln, ESAB and those who hate them. I have had fair dealings with them but as with all companies, equipment and customer service these days, your mileage may vary. We all live in a global economy now so buy what you can afford, take a close look at customer support of any company you chose to deal with (location of service as well as reliability and integrity of the company to support you as a customer) and be prepared to deal with issues if they arise.

Thurmond

GilaSlim
05-26-2011, 01:53 AM
Read this thread...

http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?t=36834

Steve from Ohio
05-26-2011, 02:26 AM
I have a couple of Everlast machines. The Powerplasma 50 and the Powertig 250EX.

So far they have been great machines with only shipping damage on my Powerplasma 50 which they fixed with a new face plate.

It seems that those who speak out the most loudly about how bad Everlast machines are, are those who don't own one but hate the idea of them being made in China.

The argument goes that the American Machines mean American jobs....but if you look inside the American machines, they are full of parts made in China and are often built in China or Chinese parts assembled in Mexico.

That argument has been going on for quite a while as we have been sold out by our government that allowed that to happen. Seeing how most large corporations are no longer considered "American" by themselves as they have put production of their products out of America for tax and other reasons. Thank you Bill Clinton and all the politicians for selling out the American worker with NAFTA and GATT.

That argument aside, the Everlast machines have been reviewed by quite a few people and so far there seems to be very little difference in the welds.
The main difference between Everlast and say, Miller or Lincoln is price. The Chinese machines have been very good at using IGBT technology and have made machines smaller with more bells and whistles than the supposed "American" machines.

The advice I have gotten from salespeople associated with the Chinese welders (3 companies) is that the 3 in one machines have more to go wrong and so are more problematic. They recommended that I get a Plasma cutter and a Tig machine. If one goes down, the other is still there.

I've been using my Everlast machines for almost a year heavily and so far not one problem. My Hobart Handler 210 I've had for two years and it has been flawless also. I only wish that Hobart would build comparable machines in price to Everlast as I would buy from them in an instant.

If you were to ask me about Everlast, I would say that yes, there is the thought that warranty work (5 years which is awesome) is done by sending the unit back where the Lincoln, Hobart or Miller is take it to a dealer for repair. The idea is out there too that Everlast is a newer company and may not be around. In business, there are no guarantees that even Miller or Lincoln will be around. So you take a chance with whatever machine you buy.

Here is the pluses and minuses of Everlast.......

Pluses:
1. Price.....way less expensive than the comparable Lincoln or Miller.
2. Technology.....IGBT technology has come a long way and makes for a compact easy to use machine with all the options that anyone could want.
3. 5 Year warranty.
4. Excellent technical support. Any questions can be answered by guys who designed the machines (designed by Americans). No talking to some person who just learned to speak English.

Minuses:
1. No dealer support....not yet in many areas....but Everlast is selling through some Airgas dealerships. I hear repairs will eventually be supported at some Airgas dealerships.
2. Repair......have to send it back....shipping cost.....not cheap.
3. Resale value.....to be determined. So far there are very few used Everlast machines available. This will require time to see for sure. Miller's hold their value quite well as does Lincoln.
4. Being a newer company, they are going through growing pains. Some products are selling so well that they have backorder problems.

I don't work for Everlast, own no stock in the company and get no enumeration for any comments made about Everlast here or anywhere else. I only tell it like it is.

I would buy but get the Powertig 250EX. Stay away from the multi units.

urch55
05-26-2011, 08:08 AM
Steve,
By your own comparison of "Pluses---Minuses" tells me to "Steer Clear".
If I buy some thing, I would like to know if problems arise, I can take it to some one logically.
The USA welders may have foreign parts installed in them But I will stick with them..

Scott Young
05-26-2011, 12:36 PM
Want more reviews, go ask on Welding Web. Those two companies have destroyed their reputations on there. I am not against the machine or the companies for being or not being china made or whatever. I have voiced my opposition to the blatant lies, over hyped sales pitches, unethical business tactics, and general arrogance of users and company reps.

I believe time will tell if the machines are up to the harsh environments true industry leaders find themselves used in. I feel there is a niche for these welders as hobbie welders and limited use commercial related welders. They don't take abuse well. Look how many problems are blamed on shipping. shipping is just one form of abuse. These machines are inteded for mobililty. They are portable welders and as such if they can't travel in a fitted box un harmed then how well do you think they will handle being tossed into a truck here, there, and about. I am not talking about blatant abuse of throwing a machine around, but just think about the average hired hand loading and unloading a portable plasma cutter/welder day afer day in and out of a truck, trailer, back seat, tool box, etc.

Read the claims: This little wire came loose due to shipping. That screw backed out and metal was warped due to shipping. That board was jarred due to shipping. Thos connectors came loose due to shipping.

I have been watching and interacting with owners/customers/employees for several years. Little has changed. They still use the same tired over inflated sales pitches, and they still refuse to understand everytime they get dragged into an online argument they are their own worst enemy.

epjohnso
05-26-2011, 03:37 PM
I bought a H187, have used it over a year, no problems.
I wanted to do aluminum, and by the time I would have upgraded the H187 to a spool gun could have almost bought a new 210 with spoolgun included. I ended up buying a Miller M211 with spoolgun. Had it 10 days, and it died - dead. Fortunately bought it from a LWS, who was a service center. Took it in and they repaired it in about 8 days. So, regardless of what someone says, even Hobart/Miller can have problems initially. Stilling using them, only the one problem on the Miller.
Later I wanted a plasma cutter - I thought I would go with one of the 3 in 1 combo machines. Looking at the cost, and for my usage, I end up buying one of the Chinese welders. It's worked right out of the box, no problems - other than a air leak from the regulator/filter sent with the unit. As a non-technical problem is the unit I received had no manual, so I figured I just send a note to the company and request a new manual.
Now, I have to say, when I ordered the unit I got response from the company/owner immediately! Wow, great. For the request I sent in for a manual - actually sent 3-maybe 4 emails, I've never gotten a reply from the company. Nothing, zero, zilch. The only service the provide is charging your credit card. Fortunately the model I got is the same as the Everlast, and they provided a link to their manual. So, my expectation is when I do have a problem, I won't get anything. A three year warranty isn't any good if you don't have someone to send it for repair.

Now, I wish I would have gotten a Hobart Plasma cutter, and then looked around for a used TIG machine. While the machine is still working, I feel like I'm living on borrowed time.

By the way, if you want to know what happened to my Miller - Fried the main circuit board and fan circuitry - definitely not a loose wire.

monckywrench
05-26-2011, 04:27 PM
Perpetual, nationwide SPAM adverts in Craigslist made an enemy of me.

They sell nothing I need, and for hobby use I can buy used US-made industrial machines that will last longer, do more, and are well-supported.

I've bagged an ESAB 450i cvcc with Digipulse feeder (and a mound of good air tools with abrasives etc) for 1300, a Miller 340 for 250, and Econotig for 500, and there are plenty more out there.

If I buy new it'll most likely be Miller because of their outstanding customer support and excellent forum community. Hobart rocks too.

Nitesky
05-26-2011, 09:48 PM
Spend some time on the Welding Web forum.
They have their own areas. Seems to me that the customer is not always right with these guys and rather than make something right it is much more important to get in the last word at all costs.

Steve from Ohio
05-26-2011, 10:10 PM
Perpetual, nationwide SPAM adverts in Craigslist made an enemy of me.

They sell nothing I need, and for hobby use I can buy used US-made industrial machines that will last longer, do more, and are well-supported.

I've bagged an ESAB 450i cvcc with Digipulse feeder (and a mound of good air tools with abrasives etc) for 1300, a Miller 340 for 250, and Econotig for 500, and there are plenty more out there.

If I buy new it'll most likely be Miller because of their outstanding customer support and excellent forum community. Hobart rocks too.Yes, I am very happy with my Handler 210 and it has been one great Mig welder. Best Mig machine I've owned so far.

Nationwide advertisements on Craigslist does not bother me. As long as I get a good deal and a machine that works, who cares where they advertise or if they eat worms.

If I can get a machine that does what I want at a decent price reliably, then they have me as a customer.

mcostello
05-27-2011, 10:16 PM
There has been a person who had to return one for warranty work. They made him pay shipping. On welding Web, you would have to look and find it as I don't remember on what date it was.

gatemaker
05-29-2011, 11:15 AM
Did you buy your Everlast at full price? Did they give them to you for your support? I know Longevity has given "professionals" machines that end up being shown off in you tube clips.

pistolnoon
05-30-2011, 03:02 AM
I bought a Longevity mulifunction last spring a LS200PI Longevity (Tig, Stick/Plasma) and researched the idea for several months and spoke with the owner, and got a good deal and in fact spend more time on their forum than any other, and I suggest if you want to speak to people about these machines and what problems you may encounter go to the Longevity forum or free welding forum.This year I got a second identical machine to use in the body shop.
Their is still a mix of mosfet and IGBT use, and for that matter people cannot decide which can work better, for the most part the reason all mfgs are going IGBT is because they can work if one goes out at partial power, and it requires fewer of them, if you get a working machine to your door, if UPS doesn't destroy it in the delivery, chances are you never have to worry.If it does their is a good warranty, you pay shipping, and they are made to make repairs easy, I know my machines and have serviced one, although the machine is three in one they are easy to distiquish what a component is for.Modern inverters such as the one I have are using ****roft-Walton bridges for power, which is a combination ladder of capacitors and high power transistors instead of the heavy transformers to produce power conditioning.
The only problem with chinese machines is the stress testing of these individual components, that are a large part of these machines, could put them in fore front if they made the effort to do, but costs would be higher.Some connections could be made better or tighter, but ground and torches are good in fact identical to some Hobart Tig and Plasma.Also their is the turn around time in getting to a dealer and changing out a damage machine IF you are unlucky enough to have a problem.But alot of torch components and plasma cutter components are ubiquitous.They could produce a better manual with schematics in them for future servicing(??).
I have made changes that are now standard on new machines, quick connections.Would like to go to a flexible head tig torch, and less robush tig torch/line covering because it is a little stiff to use, a longer gound cord and maybe in the future a longer plasma cutter cord.
I am happy with the advance features that my machines have for their cost but advise you to buy the best you can afford, some of the new domestic machines have amazing features.
Best

Stick-man
05-30-2011, 04:33 PM
I have heard enough horror stories on welding web to never even consider one of these machines. And you want to look in the "Off Topic" area. In the longevity and neverlast areas, the real bad true stories are removed.

I would consider a harbor freight, if they had something I could use. At least there, you can get an extended warranty, and an exchange unit right now at one of their stores.

When you buy a Miller, Hobart, Lincoln or Esab, you are buying a unit that will probably get passed on to your grandchildren! In the long run, they are much cheaper.

SidecarFlip
05-30-2011, 06:58 PM
Everlast reminds me of the ads in the newspapers in the fall and winter for the 'Miracle Heater'... or the Amish built wooden fireplace with the electric heater built in.

1500 watts at 110 volts only produces so many BTU's no matter what the medium of generation is.

89mirageman
05-30-2011, 08:09 PM
Another option would be the Eastwood units. Still made in China but at least there is support and someone will answer the phone or an email should you need them. I almost pulled the trigger on the Tig 200 but decided to buy a bigger Mig instead and got the HH187 on sale at Tractor Supply.

The reviews seem to be great on the Eastwood units. I even went through their feedback on ebay and sent 3 or 4 people a message that bought the tig. All of them replied that they loved it and had zero issues so far.

Then again its around $900, $400 more gets you the Hobart 165i.:D

urch55
05-30-2011, 09:38 PM
1500 watts at 110 volts only produces so many BTU's no matter what the medium of generation is.

Yes this is true but,, you have to add in the sheet(s) factor....

Steve from Ohio
05-31-2011, 08:43 AM
Did you buy your Everlast at full price? Did they give them to you for your support? I know Longevity has given "professionals" machines that end up being shown off in you tube clips.
As I have stated, I received no enumeration for my comments. I get nothing from Everlast and I do not work for them. I have no You Tube videos as I do not own a video camera.

All I know is what I know. The Everlast machines have been great so far.

I will only say that I wish they were made in America but it is what it is. I would have bought Miller or Lincoln but did not want to pay their prices. I wanted a new machine with a decent warranty and that is what I got.

Steve from Ohio
05-31-2011, 09:05 AM
I have heard enough horror stories on welding web to never even consider one of these machines. And you want to look in the "Off Topic" area. In the longevity and neverlast areas, the real bad true stories are removed.

I would consider a harbor freight, if they had something I could use. At least there, you can get an extended warranty, and an exchange unit right now at one of their stores.

When you buy a Miller, Hobart, Lincoln or Esab, you are buying a unit that will probably get passed on to your grandchildren! In the long run, they are much cheaper.
Maybe so.......It is a risk I was willing to take as far as repairs and such. I know this argument will go on forever as they have on so many other sites and even on this one.

Obviously there is a market for less expensive welding equipment. The stuff from China is getting better. The companies that are selling them would not be around if it was as bad as it was made out to be by some of the well meaning but mis informed.

I don't care to pass on equipment as I have no kids. If I did, they would have to get their own as I don't plan on leaving! I just want it to work for 5 to 10 years and then go buy another with newer technology.

I am only looking to make the most money with the least amount of investment. I don't like buying Chinese, but economics rule. Paying two or three times the amount for something is not good economics. And besides, the Lincoln and Miller machines are loaded with Chinese and foreign parts.
The US government we can thank for that.

Lincoln Electric is now buying foreign owned welding manufacturing facilities. They just bought a consumable manufacturer in Russia. Illinois Toolworks buys lots of stuff from China to make Miller and Hobart welding machines. Wanna know why?
Because they make more money when they are made overseas due to US tax laws and the people we elect allow it to happen.

So it is all our fault for all these Chinese welders and parts coming in because of who we voted for. Doesn't matter if you buy Everlast, Longevity, whatever or Miller or Lincoln. Some part of your American machine is made in China.

Do you want to save American jobs? Then call and write your senators and congress people and tell them to slap a 25% tariff on all imported goods. That will force companies to locate here and stop the flood of cheaper slave labor made imported goods.

Posting here will not do one thing to stop the loss of American jobs. And I buying supposed American made products won't either as they are mostly from overseas anyways.

Wyoming
05-31-2011, 10:14 AM
Personally, after all the reasoned excuses I've read so far, I'd rather spend my money on a welder made here in the U.S. Sure they have parts made overseas, but until I see the content being majority made overseas I'd rather have a welder shipped in by UPS that came in a shipping box that had sufficient packing to keep those UPS gorillas at bay, had a quality control inspector or two on-site during the construction, provided a welding forum that let posters provide information, both good and bad, without constantly deleting derogatory posts about their product and had a local source of parts and consumables readily on hand. Those Chinese welders don't provide any of that.

Given time, the Chinese welders will be a decent, maybe even a great product. They aren't there yet. In my own mind, their biggest stumbling block to providing a quality product can be directly attributed to the U.S. importers who demand the cheapest product that they can foist to their buyer base. These importers are not providing a product that shows much forethought and planning in design, as can be seen from the level of fittings, controls and guns/torches. They are getting better, probably not so much to in response to the needs of their customers so much as to quiet all the laughter produced on various forums from the cheesy, Rube Goldberg contraptions they originally came up with.

Sberry
05-31-2011, 12:55 PM
I am not here to bash anyones machine, am interested mostly in the facts. Every spare part available,,, 149$ hahaha. As Steve said,,, which I can understand,,, works good so far. If it runs them I bet I could do 90% of the work I do with a small inverter. Would be super for the part time crowd, what an affordable way for entry level. Just a few dollars in tools and they can do real work on steel and for the skilled operator they are DC to boot. Its usable within its range and thats the bottom line and the price is a plus. Cost a 1/4 or less than a Maxstar, not long ago it would have been half.
If I was working in a harsh professional welding service environment then the cost of the Max is zilch but to a hobby type for couple hundred it takes a lot of gut wrenching decision out of it. What a boon to 3rd world areas where salvage and repair is king. Gives a lot of opportunity for lots more to do business.
I am preaching it,,, I think Hobart needs a competitive model in this lower end lineup. Not sure of the numbers or if it could be affordable or what it had to be priced at. 100A single voltage rugged little inverter.

Brand X
05-31-2011, 01:04 PM
The little Themal-arc inverters are made in China, and I will say the quality is there with them. (right now)

Sberry
05-31-2011, 01:16 PM
How much do they cost?

Sberry
05-31-2011, 01:17 PM
For me the benchmark would be a 1/8 6011 and a 3/32 7018 nice and toasty. 30%@ 95A would be sufficient.

Wyoming
05-31-2011, 01:26 PM
The little Themal-arc inverters are made in China, and I will say the quality is there with them. (right now)

Scott, you've hit the nail on the head. Thermal-Arc isn't having those welders built in China simply as a source to enrichen the bottom line of an importer...at least not an importer who doesn't design, extensively product test and evaluate their equipment or listen to their customers needs. Thermal-Arc is providing the design, quality control to ensure that the equipment won't smear their corporate name as well as providing local after-purchase support/parts/and consumables for their product line. There is little doubt that the Chinese can and do produce world class equipment, but it isn't going to necessarily come from cheap importers asking their Chinese suppliers what they have on the shelf that they can ship over here cheap. If Everlast or Longevity ever decide to step up and do their own designing, testing and providing a storefront dealers network, as Thermal-Arc has, they would be a lot further along the road to offering a viable competitive product. Until that time, they are 'almost' good enough.

Brand X
05-31-2011, 01:50 PM
How much do they cost?


Really 90 amps on stick.



http://cgi.ebay.com/THERMAL-ARC-95S-DC-STICK-TIG-INVERTER-WELDER-CASE-/230621580830?pt=BI_Welders&hash=item35b21e0e1e#ht_5202wt_902

SidecarFlip
05-31-2011, 11:05 PM
This thread reminded me of Grizzy Machinery. In the latest catalog they make the comment that a quality machine (sander) comes from Taiwan and the cheapo copy from China. I have to laugh about that.

Evidently, the Cooley pounding out the parts by hand in Taiwan has a stool to sit on whereas the Cooley in China has to sit on the ground.:D

I guess I'm old school but 'Made in USA' still holds credence with me.

Roger
05-31-2011, 11:24 PM
Starting US dealer network, with service and spare parts requires lots of planning, money and risk. Wouldn't be able to sell welders as cheap. VW and Renault learned this lessen with success and failure. Japan motor cycle and car imports in 60s were quality products in market segments US manufactures were ignoring. Instant dealer network and parts support was large part of their success. Before that Land Cruisers were sold from Popular Mechanics ads. What dealers? Land Cruiser engine was direct copy of Chevy straight 6 with interchangeable parts. I only saw one after there was a near by dealer.

Steve from Ohio
05-31-2011, 11:52 PM
I wish that Made in the USA was possible but today it is not in most instances.

The reason is that it was the people you and I elected. The US tax laws make it mandatory that anything being made be made offshore. Made in the USA used to mean quality. Now it means stupidity by the CEO who runs it because he is not using slave labor to make his products and selling it for massive profits here in the US. That CEO would be out of a job when the stockholders got a hold of him when they found out that slave labor was not used.

If You really took the idea of only buying made in the USA to where you really meant it, then you would have NO welders at all. No cars at all. Most food is now grown outside the US. (Don't eat that banana!) Just because a company may be based in the US does not mean that it is a US company any more. Corporations could not care any less than they do right now if anyone is employed or not.

I like my Everlast machines. That being said, if I have a chance to get another tig machine, I would prefer it to be a Miller. But they just aren't available at a decent price or a decent condition. I bought the Everlast after 5 months of looking. I tried a PowerPlasma 50 first and found it to be every bit as good as a ThermalDynamics machine which I used a lot at work. After using the Everlast plasma cutter, I got their Powertig 250 after spending months on Craigslist and E-bay and scouring the internet for a decent Miller machine at a decent price. I could not find one. The reviews of the Everlast machine by Jody at Weldingtipsandtricks was the coup de grace along with e mails and phone calls to other Everlast owners.

Wyoming
06-01-2011, 01:39 AM
Steve, I seem to remember in one of your earlier posts your saying that you were using your TIG to make money. Now I see you are using a Thermal Dynamics plasma at work that is every bit as good as your own personal plasma cutter. So, are you a home shop hobbyist or running a side business from your home? If it is a home business, are you paying insurance, bonding, sales taxes, etc. or are you using the same line of thought as you did when it came time to purchase a cheap welder and going the cheapest route possible?

As far as I know, Miller does make a decent machine at a decent price. Actually they make a wide range of them. Cost of any of these machines for a business could and should be easily recouped as a legitimate business expense. Reliability and ease of walking into your local welding supply for parts and consumables would also make a lot more sense for a business where downtime cuts into profit.

I see you example of failed logic about not having welders, cars or even bananas if only U.S. manufactured or sourced goods are paramount. Clouds the real issue if you ask me. This isn't a draconian 'black or white' decision for any of us much as you might wish to make it sound. If you are content with your purchases of Chinese equipment, well and good. I hope they give you a long viable life. I haven't a thing against Chinese sourced welding equipment...when quality, reliability, dealer support and a continued presence in the marketplace are no longer in doubt. So far that hasn't been the case. Until such time as the importers meet those parameters I'll stick with my Lincoln, Miller and Hypertherm products. If and when they ever do meet those four marketing milestones I may take a look, buy one or two and get on the same rah-rah bandwagon with you.

Steve from Ohio
06-01-2011, 08:18 AM
Steve, I seem to remember in one of your earlier posts your saying that you were using your TIG to make money. Now I see you are using a Thermal Dynamics plasma at work that is every bit as good as your own personal plasma cutter. So, are you a home shop hobbyist or running a side business from your home? If it is a home business, are you paying insurance, bonding, sales taxes, etc. or are you using the same line of thought as you did when it came time to purchase a cheap welder and going the cheapest route possible?

As far as I know, Miller does make a decent machine at a decent price. Actually they make a wide range of them. Cost of any of these machines for a business could and should be easily recouped as a legitimate business expense. Reliability and ease of walking into your local welding supply for parts and consumables would also make a lot more sense for a business where downtime cuts into profit.

I see you example of failed logic about not having welders, cars or even bananas if only U.S. manufactured or sourced goods are paramount. Clouds the real issue if you ask me. This isn't a draconian 'black or white' decision for any of us much as you might wish to make it sound. If you are content with your purchases of Chinese equipment, well and good. I hope they give you a long viable life. I haven't a thing against Chinese sourced welding equipment...when quality, reliability, dealer support and a continued presence in the marketplace are no longer in doubt. So far that hasn't been the case. Until such time as the importers meet those parameters I'll stick with my Lincoln, Miller and Hypertherm products. If and when they ever do meet those four marketing milestones I may take a look, buy one or two and get on the same rah-rah bandwagon with you.I am a home shop hobbyist that makes money. I solve people's and businesses problems the least expensive way possible.

I also like to build things that most others cannot. Like hydraulic drive motorcycles that are enclosed. Motorized bicycles or recumbent tadpole trikes. Or repair a car that seems almost un-fixable. I sometimes build my own tools. Depends on what my head comes up with or what other people need.

I would have liked to buy American or what we are told is American. I liked my Lincoln mig till someone stole it. I love my Hobart Handler 210. I've used lots of equipment...Miller.....Lincoln....Hypertherm to name a few.
I liked them all. But when it came right down to it, price first and then performance was the deciding factors. Not the warranty. Not the time the company was in business. Or if it was an American company....whatever that is any more.

I also am no too rah rah as I really do hate the idea of making stuff off shore. But economics trump any other facts when it came down to buying a machine. Half price is what I am talking about. I was using the cars and bananas as a point to show that very few things we buy today are American made. I really do hate that and I blame the politicians for it. But I am a realist and realize that even if a company can say it is based in the USA, it still may be foreign made.

It really comes down to using what works.

We all make our choices based on what we think is important. My welders and my plasma cutter gets used several times a week. Paying half what I would have spent on a Plasma cutter or tig machine just makes good sense to me. If it breaks, then I guess I will see how well the warranty and support is. It is a crap shoot no matter what. No one can guarantee that Miller or Lincoln will be in business even next year. The only constant in this world is change.

I hope that my Everlast products work for quite a long time. If they don't, I'll be sure to let everyone know. I was pretty open on another site when I got my plasma cutter and found the front face plate cracked due to shipping. They fixed that by sending me another face plate. Easy fix. I had a chance to open up the cutter and saw that there were some missing screws floating around inside the case stuck under one of the components.
I was not happy about that. Then there was the bracket to hold the air filter on the Plasma cutter. It did not fit. I had to make another. Found out it was a common problem for many of the Chinese made plasma cutter machines. When I got the Powertig 250, everything was a lot smoother. Came in perfect and has not missed a beat.

Sberry
06-01-2011, 08:42 AM
If Everlast or Longevity ever decide to step up and do their own designing, testing and providing a storefront dealers network, as Thermal-Arc has,
Starting US dealer network, with service and spare parts requires lots of planning, money and risk. Wouldn't be able to sell welders as cheap Thats the answer to that, doing all that would drive the price up and then they would become another competitor in the same class.
Now,, remember part of the cheap sales price in this deal is the sales markups, lots of people willing to do sales cheap, a big piece of the cost of a Miller goes to profits all along the way, dealers, inventory, all costs money.
If there was enough in it seems they would pick up a national vendor, Walmart, Home Depot, some rural chain.
Look at a similar product, pressure washers. No real dealers or parts for a cheap washer you plug into the wall and bought at a box store, there is a place for this machine, and a demand but it doesn't compare with my 5000$ (25 yrs ago) Alkota, assembled with standard industrial parts can be serviced, etc. For the cost of a HH210 you can get one pretty decent. I see lots of cheap units that were not much more than the cost of a couple rentals, last the guy a couple years, 300$, replaceable. Not worth the extensive support, would have to be 600$.

Sberry
06-01-2011, 08:49 AM
The better the cheaper units get the more it forces competition in the better units too. Other than specialty marketed types the quality of imports has risen and the cost of USA has dropped. No excuse anymore not to be able to have good wrenches and sockets, craftsman has always been reasonable but today you can buy a knockoff snappy for 5%, almost anyone can afford usable tools without going in hock to a truck vendor, would have never been possible at one point.

AZwelder1
06-02-2011, 09:13 PM
Let's look at the big picture, we started this thing. And then we ruined it. They learned this from us, but cut out all of the self-imposed controls we use - QC, customer service, employee safety, employee benefits, etc. Some of this stuff doesn't even turn on when it comes out of the box.

Let's start a new thread about when the last time someone purchased a Miller wirefeeder that didn't turn on when it came out of the box? Probably not too many.

MichaelP
06-03-2011, 02:23 AM
I yet to see a chinese machine screw that would match its own nut properly. And you're asking me if I want to buy a chinese welder or plasma cutter?!
It's not even funny.

Wyoming
06-03-2011, 02:25 AM
Lagun is a Spanish manufacturer.

Brand X
06-03-2011, 02:42 AM
Lagun is a Spanish manufacturer.

Quality units from what I have seen.

Wyoming
06-03-2011, 03:24 AM
Quality units from what I have seen.

I'd agree with you on that Scott. BTW, Bridgeport is still manufacturing mills and machining centers, though ownership has passed on to Hardinge...which makes some darned fine equipment and tooling.

usmcpop
06-03-2011, 05:53 PM
What gets me is if you do a search for arc welder manufacturers in China on a site like Alibaba.com, it comes back with close to 16,000 makes and models. Even allowing for a lot of duplicates, there have to be dozens if not hundreds of manufacturers and variations. How do you find the good ones? Good luck.

Sberry
06-03-2011, 08:57 PM
Yes, China bought as lot of turnkey plants and copied them thats for sure.
Now, the novice drops some money on a POS welder, opens the box, and posts on an internet board, "Just got my new tig machine. How do I turn it on?" Where they sposed to go and ask?

Don't believe me. Check out the posts. Never seen such BS in all my life. It would be kind of pointless for a bunch of experts to get together and repeat it all to each other. I didn't read it in the rules one needed a certain amount of experience to get on here.
My general opinion of the class of folks on here is they are first rate, above average in general mechanical aptitude all the way till they couldn't go any farther in the school. A lot of talent in general, some real fine mechanics and realize the value of the ability to stick it together, says a lot, and they tend to be a conscientious bunch. There is always a weenie or 2 in every crowd but they are few and far between here.
Lots of them the goal isn't to be career welders its results, they want to build something, they don't even need to know it all, complete waste of time, ranks right up there with golf in my opinion. To top it off there are a certain number that have the ability, with the brains and academic ability to pass me know how much experience I got. I am only so smart, sure I can enhance that with experience and some skill sets but I have generally found even the dumbest engineer is usually scores better on an IQ test than I do.

SidecarFlip
06-03-2011, 10:44 PM
Lagun is a Spanish manufacturer.

The Lagun vertical mill that was the Bridgeport spinoff was originally copied in China. It's been copied so much, it's like a Harley. There is only one good one, the original.

Hardridge finally bought Bridgeport. I have no idea where the castings come from. Grey Iron is about dead in this country thanks to the EPA.

Montessa was a Spanish bike and it was junk too.

umahunter
06-03-2011, 11:12 PM
unless you live next to the chicom dealer. it just doesnt make sense to buy a cheap machine no support network means shipping back and fourth for repair which isn't cheap. there are good used machines out there if ya look i just sold 2 of my used machines to upgrade to a new machine(which i researched heavily) both buyers were very happy and should they ever need repair they have local centers for that. i work my *** off for my money and just couldn't see spending it on a gamble machine :rolleyes:

Wyoming
06-04-2011, 12:28 AM
The Lagun vertical mill that was the Bridgeport spinoff was originally copied in China. It's been copied so much, it's like a Harley. There is only one good one, the original.

Hardridge finally bought Bridgeport. I have no idea where the castings come from. Grey Iron is about dead in this country thanks to the EPA.

Hmmm...Lagun started building benchtop mills in Spain back in the '30s a few years prior to Bridgeport building their first mill, the archaic round ram 'M', and about two decades prior to the first 'V' ram J head model seeing the light of day...guess they just wanted to get a jump on the copying work...slow boat to China sort of thing probably. The company grew larger as the years went on buying up other Spanish machine tool manufacturers. Seems strange that they would source a vertical mill from China to sell here in the U.S.A. Guess I'll just need to see some more documentation on that 'fact' before I can wrap my mind around it.

Now as far as the Bridgeport being the only good one, I tend to disagree. Wells-Index, a fine old line American manufacturer at around the same product development time, but also probably 'copying' Bridgeport, had and still does have vertical mills with more weight/mass, features and capacity than 'the only good one'.

As to the grey iron, who knows, the rest of the machine is manufacturered in Elmira, NY. With Hardinge's reputation for machines and tooling wherever the castings come from is bound to be first rate and probably better than the original Bridgeports with castings sourced from Asia in the later years.

Krunch
06-04-2011, 01:05 AM
it's like a Harley. There is only one good one, the original.

Hardleys were great ... about 70 years ago.

Me, I'll take overhead valves. :eek: ;) :D

MichaelP
06-04-2011, 01:49 AM
Hardleys were great ... Thank you for a hint, Krunch!

Anybody wants to discuss the latest great Chinese bike "Hardly Davi-Dsun"?

Krunch
06-04-2011, 08:17 AM
I've probably been welding longer than you've been alive.

http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lurker.gif

usmcpop
06-04-2011, 03:21 PM
http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lurker.gif

Can I share some popcorn?

How you doing, J?

usmcpop
06-04-2011, 04:20 PM
Having spent a few years in the orient, I would depend on a local guy on the street corner to fix my welder in a few minutes while I wait. ( I didn't weld but that is the way.) One shop I checked out in Bangkok had many different brands. The sales lady was more than willing to hand me a brochure on a Panasonic (Japan) unit when I pointed it out to the boy. They know who is who. We don't.

stevewm
06-04-2011, 06:56 PM
There are those who love Everlast and those who hate it. There are those who love Longevity and those who hate it. There are those who Love Miller and Hobart and Lincoln, ESAB and those who hate them. I have had fair dealings with them but as with all companies, equipment and customer service these days, your mileage may vary. We all live in a global economy now so buy what you can afford, take a close look at customer support of any company you chose to deal with (location of service as well as reliability and integrity of the company to support you as a customer) and be prepared to deal with issues if they arise.

Thurmond

I have to agree. No amount of complaining about non buying American will change things back to the way they were and in most cases buying American will give jobs to lots of folks who are not American. For example, even John Deere's line of smaller tractors are repainted and relabeled Japanese and Korean tractors.

What distinguishes a good product from a bad one is truly after sale customer support. Buy a John Deere and no matter where it was made, JD will be there with parts and service.

The imports all seem to be small, one location operations with small staffs and they lack the large repair/replacement parts stores. They are simply not geared up to provide much in the way of support after the sale and their products are, to my way of thinking, disposable. In other words, instead of expecting them to last forever like the American labeled products, just throw them away when they quit and buy the latest and greatest for a replacement. Just like brands like Kubota and Toyota, they will get better over time and will give the American brands a real run for the money; quite likely the big three will source the lower end products from overseas.

Harbor Freight is an exception to the support and service rule and Eastwood in the welder arena may well be the same way.

We are totally linked up in the global economy and there is no turning back. On the other hand, those big container ships that bring product from the Far East don't return empty. They haul a lot of American products the other way like heavy machinery, cars and trucks, agricultural goods, limber, and so on.

Steve in Central TX

Steve from Ohio
06-04-2011, 10:26 PM
I have to agree. No amount of complaining about non buying American will change things back to the way they were and in most cases buying American will give jobs to lots of folks who are not American. For example, even John Deere's line of smaller tractors are repainted and relabeled Japanese and Korean tractors.

What distinguishes a good product from a bad one is truly after sale customer support. Buy a John Deere and no matter where it was made, JD will be there with parts and service.

The imports all seem to be small, one location operations with small staffs and they lack the large repair/replacement parts stores. They are simply not geared up to provide much in the way of support after the sale and their products are, to my way of thinking, disposable. In other words, instead of expecting them to last forever like the American labeled products, just throw them away when they quit and buy the latest and greatest for a replacement. Just like brands like Kubota and Toyota, they will get better over time and will give the American brands a real run for the money; quite likely the big three will source the lower end products from overseas.

Harbor Freight is an exception to the support and service rule and Eastwood in the welder arena may well be the same way.

We are totally linked up in the global economy and there is no turning back. On the other hand, those big container ships that bring product from the Far East don't return empty. They haul a lot of American products the other way like heavy machinery, cars and trucks, agricultural goods, limber, and so on.

Steve in Central TXI can't argue with anything you posted here.

Seeing how I paid 1/3 the price of a Miller Syncrowave Tig machine, my Everlast is really a disposable machine in some regards. I could buy three new Powertig 250's for the price of one new Miller Syncrowave. If the Everlast machines only last 5 to 7 years, then I'm money ahead as new machines will eventually come out which will be more reliable and just better technology overall.

SidecarFlip
06-05-2011, 09:40 AM
More for the landfill.....:D

urch55
06-05-2011, 09:40 AM
Well CFRacing,, You started this thread to ask about Longevity welders, are they good? or should you steer clear..
Well after 60 replies/posts what have you decided to do???

mikecwik
06-05-2011, 11:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTveP0ngOSs&feature=related

Krunch
06-06-2011, 06:38 AM
This is gettin' gooooooood.

http://www.ihasaflavor.com/lolcats/needz-decaf.jpg

urch55
06-06-2011, 08:32 AM
Them there welders smell like they have been around here...
http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=33141&d=1307363247

wmgeorge
06-06-2011, 10:26 AM
Well instead of wasting time here, why don't you take your questions about your Everlast or other Chinese made welders to the forum they provide? After all if they are so much better than the Made in USA stuff they should not even need any support?

I disagree about never bringing American jobs back. We can't get all of them back, but lets put US Mfg on an even keel with the Chinese. Give our guys tax credits for creating jobs here, dealing with OSHA and the EPA, oh and the paying a living wage vs slave labor or $1 an hour or less overseas pay.

Been a skilled trades union member all my life and proud of it!






I can't argue with anything you posted here.

Seeing how I paid 1/3 the price of a Miller Syncrowave Tig machine, my Everlast is really a disposable machine in some regards. I could buy three new Powertig 250's for the price of one new Miller Syncrowave. If the Everlast machines only last 5 to 7 years, then I'm money ahead as new machines will eventually come out which will be more reliable and just better technology overall.

wmgeorge
06-06-2011, 11:13 AM
Yes this is true but,, you have to add in the sheet(s) factor....

Sheets Factor? I'd say BS factor. Portable 120 volt electric heaters are limited by Code to 12 amps or less. If you pay $500 or $50 its the same BTU's. They are all 100% efficient. If you feel warmer with the $500 model then go for it.

Krunch
06-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Wait...what happened? There were like fifteen 750-word posts in a row by OhioSteve this morning...:confused:

urch55
06-06-2011, 12:36 PM
Sheets Factor? I'd say BS factor.

I guess you never heard of being under the sheets for warmth..
Your house must realy be warm..If you don't have to cover up with sheets or blankets..
So no BS. There's alot of BTUs in body heat..Try it some time.. And if you did not know what the term was just ask, before labeling it as BS....

urch55
06-06-2011, 12:42 PM
Wait...what happened? There were like fifteen 750-word posts in a row by OhioSteve this morning...:confused:

Krunch,
I think Hobart did a little house cleaning. All of Sundowns or most of them and some of Steve's posts have been deleted...

Wyoming
06-06-2011, 12:59 PM
Darned housekeeping! I especially liked Scott's postings of alleged improprieties in Sundown's postings from the past. In my opinion, they did far more in making Sundown's case appear well reasoned and experienced then they did trying to make him sound unreasonable.

wmgeorge
06-06-2011, 01:19 PM
The BS was about the claims of a $500 heater vs $50 heater.

Never heard of sheets factor, we use blankets up here in north country, sheets would never hack it :). No offense meant to anything you posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

DrIQ
06-06-2011, 02:56 PM
Sundown III,
I can't believe you. You came back and continued your critique/rant after Hobart removed both you and Steve's posts.

Looks like they removed it while I was posting

Sberry
06-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Dr, whats your take on the machines? Ok, its a question you might not want to answer,,, hahaha

urch55
06-06-2011, 04:42 PM
Don't get me mad...I want my Hobart welder!!!!

http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=33143&d=1307392864

Sberry
06-06-2011, 05:14 PM
I ran across Franz on another board back in the day and he steered me toward the Hobart board, said I belonged there and I am grateful for that. I fundamentally like these guys so this is just an observation but if I was betting I would take odds for a few bucks that him and Sundown were close blood relatives????

urch55
06-06-2011, 08:34 PM
The BS was about the claims of a $500 heater vs $50 heater.

Never heard of sheets factor, we use blankets up here in north country, sheets would never hack it :). No offense meant to anything you posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

George,
Apologies accepted..
Who mentioned anything about $500.00 and $50.00 heaters.?? I didn't. :confused: That is why I did not know why you quoted me, as if I said it. Here this far south you can get heaters reasonable. I got mine out of a roll off dumpster, even fan forced..:p and guess what? it worked...;)
Unless that was one of the posts that got deleted..

pistolnoon
06-07-2011, 04:37 PM
I recently fixed an import, found the problem to be a blown Infineon K75T60, thing is could not find a data sheet to match it up to another cheap mosfet in america but we are in a world economy just went to an online retailer and their is over 300 of them and ordered two, one for a spare. Cost me $35.00, $10.00 for the two which is high, but I did not need 100,so I wasn't going to find a better deal, $15.00 for shipping and courier.
In fact the more I hear people complain about imports the better I feel because it is worth it to buy them to fix them, problems are usaully minor.
Bad press about these units is because in the past it is true information, but the two biggest Longevity and Everlast is offering good service and warrantee, but you have to be prepared for such a good price to accept some problems, but they are not deal breakers.
Also the reason for alot of negativey from some professional welders is because if you are in a production shop and running a Syncrowave 350, or XMT 350a, or even Dynasty 700, their is no way you are ever going to look back at any machine, import or domestic without looking down on them because of the ability you have to push down on the pedal and form a puddle because of the amperage available, but few people I have spoken to have ever confirmed using an import, none, all talk.So alot of comments are without basis.
Before I bought mine I was the same way, down on posts about imports, used to raz them all the time but I am honest and rational and found thread after thread where pro owners were happy with the performance and said their has to be something to it.I saw Longevity fixing machines they did not even sell to keep the image postive, and so I made the plunge and thought the cost isn't so much that it is a big risk, so try one, worst that can happen I lose my money, and in welding it isn't alot to spend.And I am happy with both machines.
Their are changes I had to make and want to make, like longer cabling, thinner sheath around tig torch, so it is less stiff and rigid because it is overly robust.And I have had to fix with new clamps some hose leakage, cost about $0.50
Bottom line is what you buy is with your own money, and don't have to answer to anyone about what you buy, no customer is going to ask you what you welded with, and I have said it before nobody will refuse a job if they were given an import to weld with.
best

morgaj1
06-07-2011, 07:21 PM
I recently fixed an import, found the problem to be a blown Infineon K75T60, thing is could not find a data sheet to match it up to another cheap mosfet in america but we are in a world economy just went to an online retailer and their is over 300 of them and ordered two, one for a spare.

Not to split hairs, but I think the K75T60 is actually an IGBT rather than a MOSFET.

I have kept quiet on this debate, watching to see where it goes. I have always tried to buy American. I own a couple of Hobart Welders and lots of Dewalt, Milwaukee and Porter Cable tools. However, I have noticed that the vast majority of the power tools from these big American manufacturers have either been made in China or Mexico. I was very surprised to see that my expensive Dewalt angle grinders are all made in China.

I have decided to buy a plasma cutter. For quite some time, I have been scouring Craigslist and the local classifieds for a used Hypertherm, Thermal dynamics, Miller, Lincoln or Hobart unit to no avail. As much as I would like to buy one of these plasma cutters new, I simply cannot afford it. I am a hobby welder with 2 small children and do not have $1,500+ for a tool. Since I cannot find a used "American Made" plasma cutter, I decided on an Everlast. I researched quite a bit. I read the old drama from WW and agree that both companies did not represent themselves well. However, I read many more posts where Oleg or Simon have gone the extra mile to help a customer with a problem. In fact, I saw several examples where they repaired units from a competitor.

I guess what I am saying is, you guys throwing rocks at those of that have purchased an Everlast or Longevity product should check your own garage or shop. I think you will be surprised at the number of Chinese or Mexican-made power tools you own and purchased from a well-known American company.

AZwelder1
06-08-2011, 10:36 PM
And who knew? The friend of a friend who laundered money for Bill Clinton was a harbor freight weldor. I mean, at the least, you'd think slick willy would have been able to launder a blue one or a red one.

SidecarFlip
06-09-2011, 10:29 PM
.....I think you will be surprised at the number of Chinese or Mexican-made power tools you own and purchased from a well-known American company.

In actuality, that sums up the whole thread. There are those of us who prefer American made/assembled machinery, myself included, however, the 'World Class Manufacturing' has encompassed all of us, like it or not.

From the computers we communicate on, to the tires on our cars, we've succumbed to the International marketplace.

Ruark
06-10-2011, 10:39 AM
"Made in China" is pretty irrelevant at this point. It's still an American company, they just locate their FACTORY in China or elsewhere, because of the cheaper labor costs. The design, specifications, manufacturing processes, etc. are all American. If the same things were made here, their retail prices would quadruple.

Wyoming
06-10-2011, 11:36 AM
"Made in China" is pretty irrelevant at this point. It's still an American company, they just locate their FACTORY in China or elsewhere, because of the cheaper labor costs. The design, specifications, manufacturing processes, etc. are all American. If the same things were made here, their retail prices would quadruple.

While there may be some truth in what you say, there are a few more half-truths. If by 'American company' you mean importers, then you are right on that count. Design? Well, maybe if it was copied off an existing model without regard to patents. Specifications? I doubt whether the importers even have a firm grasp as to specifications needed for a competent welder, but I'll give you a maybe on that one as long as you agree that specifications from China may or may not be followed as to correctly sourced components and not some facsimile counterfeit copies. As to manufacturing processes, all the importers are looking for is CHEAP. Finally, if these machines were made here in the U.S. they would be uncompetitive due to pricing, but only because the American public is most often looking for a cheap price not reputation, service, quality and dependability. Add those features into a Chinese produced machine and the pricing goes up to U.S. levels. If an American machine was produced here with questionable conponents, lack of service and support, hit or miss quality and dependability, I believe we could stand head to head with the Chinese manufacturers, but do you really want to buy a machine like that?

epjohnso
06-10-2011, 11:42 AM
We do live in a global economy, and many of the products we buy are made throughout the world. Illinois Tool Works, who is the parent company of Miller, Hobart, Benard, Weldcraft and other companies in the welding industry, is happy to say they are a diversify company, doing business in 52 countries.

So, if anyone here thinks their welding product doesn't contain parts from at least 2 or more of these countries is living in some dream world. Many of these discussions are like the "I only buy Union", and when many companies moved their manufacturing to the southern 'right to work' states, have somewhat changed the mantra from Union Made to USA made.

Regardless of where it's built, is it reliable, and a good value for the money you paid? Do they stand behind and service the product they sold you?
What are you really buying?

usmcpop
06-10-2011, 05:07 PM
... Regardless of where it's built, is it reliable, and a good value for the money you paid? Do they stand behind and service the product they sold you? ...

Therein lies the rub. In my career, folks could call me evenings and weekends and sales reps could even come and stay at my house. All I asked was that you don't expect lightnining response in the wee hours of the night. Let it ring a few times ...

Sandy
06-10-2011, 08:54 PM
The thing that keeps getting glossed over is connotation the phrase 'cheap chi-com crap' carries with it. It has more to do with the product itself than its actual country of origin. If an American made product was consistantly smashed to he11 & gone upon delivery and had a tremendous failure rate out of the box we'd be calling it 'cheap American crap' and rightfully so, but that doesn't happen much now does it?

What makes a cheap chi-com product 'cheap chi-com crap' is the fact that the labor is super cheap, the components that go into it are the cheap, the way it is assembled is cheap, the manner it is marketed and sold is cheap, and the product support is as equally cheap. Using this definition everlast and longevity are 'cheap chi-com crap'. A 50 cent gold ring that turns your finger green. Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. Do I have to actually purchase a gold ring that turns your finger green from each and every single supplier on the globe before I can voice my opinion about everlast or longevity cheap gold rings that turn your finger green? Nope, I've bought enough to recognize one a mile off.

Nitesky
06-11-2011, 08:46 AM
The thing that keeps getting glossed over is connotation the phrase 'cheap chi-com crap' carries with it. It has more to do with the product itself than its actual country of origin. If an American made product was consistantly smashed to he11 & gone upon delivery and had a tremendous failure rate out of the box we'd be calling it 'cheap American crap' and rightfully so, but that doesn't happen much now does it?

What makes a cheap chi-com product 'cheap chi-com crap' is the fact that the labor is super cheap, the components that go into it are the cheap, the way it is assembled is cheap, the manner it is marketed and sold is cheap, and the product support is as equally cheap. Using this definition everlast and longevity are 'cheap chi-com crap'. A 50 cent gold ring that turns your finger green. Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. Do I have to actually purchase a gold ring that turns your finger green from each and every single supplier on the globe before I can voice my opinion about everlast or longevity cheap gold rings that turn your finger green? Nope, I've bought enough to recognize one a mile off.

Well said.

tonylumps
06-11-2011, 07:49 PM
I am a new Guy to welding I make my living now driving a Truck I am no stranger to tools Made my living banging nails for 30 years. You know they are cheap,I know they are cheap, The people who sell them know, And the people who buy them know. And the first thing you here from the people that bought them is I can't afford a real Welder or Plasma Cutter, If you work for your money Then you can not afford to buy cheap and worry every time you turn on that unit . You will end up with the Real Mcoy sooner or Later and the Money you spend for Brand X is Pi$$ed away. Just my thought

Sberry
06-12-2011, 11:02 AM
I am a new Guy to welding I make my living now driving a Truck I am no stranger to tools Made my living banging nails for 30 years. You know they are cheap,I know they are cheap, The people who sell them know, And the people who buy them know. Thats really simple and well worded. The last few posts have been good.
There is a time and place for the stuff and its not impossible to use it to make a living. There is certainly a certain threshold. There is return on investment and there is time, also a 150$ machine just isn't adequate, won't do the work and wont stand up to the duty, a guy in the trades at scale,,, all of a sudden a 15K welding machine may be relatively minor expense in the grand scheme of things.
The 100$ Forney I bought is what I describe as inadequate, the 150$ Longevitey in the test looks like it works pretty well and I think it could serve the same space as the 800$ Maxstar in my case given the rate I use it etc. What about parts??? Well if it works out of the box all parts and service available, 150$. I own my Max 3 yrs maybe, warranty coming g off and I burn about half a box of rods with the thing, maybe 20#, not doing anything at a level where the quality of the machine would have meant a pinch of sheet, wouldn't have meant worldwide doom if it did fail, would have well paid for itself in a couple uses.
I think Eastwood and those like them have went about as low as you can go on small feeders, there is just a certain limit before you cut what makes it work, not including cutting into its duty cycle. I see a Northern tool AC buzzer, list at 149$, 200A 10%, agreed it ain't much of a machine but I bet it works, building a little yard art or fixing the mower better than no machine.

fjk
06-13-2011, 09:05 AM
What makes a cheap chi-com product 'cheap chi-com crap' is the fact that the labor is super cheap, the components that go into it are the cheap, the way it is assembled is cheap, the manner it is marketed and sold is cheap, and the product support is as equally cheap. Using this definition everlast and longevity are 'cheap chi-com crap'.

Not everything the Chinese make is crap --- it all depends on who
does the buying. If it's a Big Box Store or discount retailer or the like,
who is interested only in price, then the stuff is crap. Even if it was made
here, it would be crap. It would have to be. The only way to keep the
price down is to use low-grade materials, low-grade labor, low-grade
machinery, etc, etc. The only difference is that their cheap crap would
be cheaper than our cheap crap.

But the Chinese can also make good things _if_ the buyer demands
it (and pays for it). Most if the integrated circuits that go into the
systems that make the Internet work are made in the PRC. Same with
personal computers and monitors and ... If they were crap, you would
not be reading this message :D The difference is that HP and Cisco
and Apple demand, and pay for, the quality they want.

Frank

Sberry
06-14-2011, 07:44 AM
If it's a Big Box Store or discount retailer or the like,
who is interested only in price, Depends,,, a big store doesn't want to be a warranty return center either, a lot of the real crap is vended differently. Cheap and junk are relative, sure the toaster my Grandmother bought 65 yrs ago was better than the one i bought last year,,, she saved for 2 months or more to buy it, I paid under 20$ in todays money. Most stuff in the world is better or cheaper than it ever was.

SidecarFlip
06-14-2011, 09:09 AM
Depends,,, a big store doesn't want to be a warranty return center either, a lot of the real crap is vended differently. Cheap and junk are relative, sure the toaster my Grandmother bought 65 yrs ago was better than the one i bought last year,,, she saved for 2 months or more to buy it, I paid under 20$ in todays money. Most stuff in the world is better or cheaper than it ever was.

Home Depot and Lowes found out about that with the John Deere lawnmower fiasco. Lots of disgruntled customers buying JD lawnmowers and then having to deal with a JD dealer to get them fixed.....

NA Educated
06-14-2011, 11:17 AM
I am a new Guy to welding I make my living now driving a Truck I am no stranger to tools Made my living banging nails for 30 years. You know they are cheap,I know they are cheap, The people who sell them know, And the people who buy them know. And the first thing you here from the people that bought them is I can't afford a real Welder or Plasma Cutter, If you work for your money Then you can not afford to buy cheap and worry every time you turn on that unit . You will end up with the Real Mcoy sooner or Later and the Money you spend for Brand X is Pi$$ed away. Just my thought

I'm new to welding and haven't had much experience with tools and the need for quality. BUT everyone I've talked to with some REAL experience pretty much says the same thing... If you want the real deal, then you need to pay some serious cash. And if you want to do quality work then you should have quality tools.

tonylumps
06-14-2011, 06:37 PM
An experianced Weldor on this forum who uses a cheap Welder knows it is junk. But a new guy like me who buys one doesn't know if the Welder is bad or the Weldor is bad. So I like the odds in my favor when I am trying something new. I bought a MM211 and a Powermax 30 so if something does not Cut or Weld Right Then I know I am doing something wrong And it is not the Equipment I am using.

brucer
06-18-2011, 07:32 PM
heres my take on foreign made machines..

first off :we all buy them, we all use them, we all know this, we all do it...

as far as welding equipment goes, i've owned and used alot of brands.. i'm a toolmaker by trade and i have a small garage/shop at home (a welder, plasma, tig welder, they are seperate machines, i wouldnt put all my eggs in one basket with welding and cutting needs.. i recently added a 1972 bridgeport mill (i'm still grinning), i have various tools and saws and tubing bender and such also.... i'm building an old hotrod for myself at the moment and built them in the past and on the side for other people... i currently own a Lincoln 180c, a Thermal Arc 185tsw, and i purchased a Longevity 40i plasma cutter in January of this year..

tig welders i have used in the past, an old linde/hobarts/lincolns/millers/esabs and i currently own a Thermal arc tig welder which is made in Taiwan and is actually owned by a Japanese company named Sanrex (Sansha Electric).. i love the thermal arc its served me well so far(5 or 6 yrs), would i buy another one?if i could afford it, YES.. the thermal arc/Sanrex welder is a top quality piece made in taiwan,and i would put it up against any other tig welder in the world in that amperage range.. but if my thermal arc blew up tomorrow i would probably buy a used syncrowave 250 because they are relatively inexpensive....

mig welders i have owned several, an older hobart(i think 160amp), a miller 252, a lincoln 180c a century 150amp, a snapon 125 amp.. out of those i have to say the miller 252 was hands down the best, but it was a $4000 chassis machine, i traded a car for the welder and some other stuff... i kick myself in the rear for getting rid of it but i bought my current lincoln 180c and my current thermal arc tig and had cash left over... out of the small migs ive used and owned the Lincoln serves its purpose and works great.... i have also pondered the idea of getting a new mig welder later on, and i have to say for the money and quality of my thermal arc tig, i will have to give the Thermal arc fabricator 210 a hard look, but will more than likely go with the Hobart Ironman 230 and buy locally...

For plasma cutters i have used hypertherm and thermal dynamics at work both for personal use at work.. they worked great would love to have one at home but couldnt justify that much money at the time.. i have used Bluepoint (owned for yrs) that i picked up used for dirt cheap (like $150) very well worth the money... i took very good care of it and it worked flawlessly but i needed to cut thicker and wanted a pilot arc machine, i sold the older bluepoint for $575 and i took that money and bought a Longevity 40i.. i knew what i was buying and i didnt want to put out $400 to $1000 more for hypertherm or thermal dynamics.. i dont own a business so i dont recoup my expenses for equipment... when i received the longevity i was actually surprised it was/is a decent looking machine.. its not the quality of a hypertherm or TD unit but i knew it wouldnt be... it does work fine, and i dont care what anyone says, it works pretty good( i actually have $175 in the longevity machine).. it doesnt use tips that bad either, more than a hypertherm or TD but the tips are also much cheaper... i pay like $40 for 5 tips and 5 electrodes from harbor freight, so far the first tip and electrode are still in the torch, its cut up an old jeep headed to the scrapper and some brackets for a boat trailer and they're still good enough to keep using.. the water trap bracket hole locations were out of location, i made a new bracket and mounted the trap on the cart anyways so no big deal, the water trap is pretty cheesy though, i will upgrade this later for sure... the longevity machine i got was a decent machine for the money, and it serves its purpose... if i owned a business or had more money i would have bought one of the hypertherm or Thermal Dynamics units, but the longevity unit allows me to cut steel with a plasma cutter, thickest i've cut with it is 3/8 and it cut it pretty good, i would say it will do 1/2 , maybe not as fast as a hypertherm or TD unit but i'm pretty sure it'll do it..
i wish hypertherm would put out a hobby/budget plasma cutter to compete, but they seem to not even want in that part of the market... thermal dynamics seems to be breaking into that market with their cutmaster 39 and cutmaster42...
i might own one of the cutmaster 42's at some point, but for now i'm satisfied with the longevity machine..

Sberry
06-18-2011, 10:49 PM
Good write up.

donald branscom
07-02-2011, 09:15 PM
There are those who love Everlast and those who hate it. There are those who love Longevity and those who hate it. There are those who Love Miller and Hobart and Lincoln, ESAB and those who hate them. I have had fair dealings with them but as with all companies, equipment and customer service these days, your mileage may vary. We all live in a global economy now so buy what you can afford, take a close look at customer support of any company you chose to deal with (location of service as well as reliability and integrity of the company to support you as a customer) and be prepared to deal with issues if they arise.

Thurmond

One thing is left out. Lincoln has been making welding machines a long time and have lots of experience and engineers that JUST MAKE WELDING MACHINES. Lincoln Electric has been in business since 1895 or 115 years! The others do not have the experience yet.
Miller has been in business at least 40 years!
Welding machine companies come and go. Lincoln and Miller and Hobart have already been here a long time and will continue to be here.

When you see photos of the space shuttle program they almost always are using a Miller.
BTW...LINDE was one of the first TIG welders from England.

SidecarFlip
07-03-2011, 09:50 AM
The reason why they use Miller (or Lincoln) is twofold. One, any government entity or government affiliate is mandated to purchase American made over foreign made (if at all possible) and two, I'm sure the after the sale service is next to none.

I left another forum permanently because the forum owner chooses to condone everlast welders over the domestic offerings. From a personal standpoint, I find that unacceptable as well as anti-American.

We don't do Chi-com here. At least if domestic alternatives are available. If they aren't, then the 'other' manufacturer is purchased, a good example is the computer I'm posting on.

While it's the end users choice whether to purchase offshore or domestic assembled. I prefer domestic because if it fails, you have some recourse other than an Internet entity that may or may not honor a warranty or parts replacement issue.

A good example is posters that post here concerning their Hobart machines and without fail, someone from Hobart answers and usually provides the poster with an avenue of resolution and/or parts availability.

usmcpop
07-03-2011, 10:21 AM
Don,

Lincoln started out making electric motors, but by 1922 welders were the primary business. Makes sense, as the early ones were motor-generator type and the field of welding was just beginning to grow. Miller has been around for 76 years.

It's interesting to read the company histories on their web sites. Miller's is especially good, as they also note other inventions of the same time periods. Some are amusing.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/company/Pages/company-history.aspx

http://www.millerwelds.com/about/companyinfo.html

SidecarFlip
07-03-2011, 10:13 PM
Over the years, prior to retirement, I hauled many, many tons of HRPD coils and slit material into Lincoln Electric in Euclid, Ohio, for manufacture of electric motors and who knows what else.

I've walked around the plant many times (PPE on of course) and watched everything from the wire extruder machines to coating of SMAW electrodes to the actual building of welders. The employees at Lincoln are friendly, outgoing and ready to explain what they do and show you the quality of the workmanship. Remember, Lincoln is employee owned and each and every employee shares in the profit or in the loss, whatever that is.

Lincoln's steel receiving bay and overhead crane (coild unload via crane and 'C' hook) is located in the same building that Lincoln utilizes to first article test their external driven machines. Machines are pulled from the assembly line at random and literally run to death, continuously, 24/7/365 until they die and then they are taken apart to see what failed and the failed parts redesigned. I've watched the process first hand.

The machines aren't just run, they run under 100% load, cycled on and off and on and off until they die. There are portable resistor banks for the smaller machines and a water fall cooled bank for the bigger machines.

It was nice in the winter with the radiant heat from the resistors but in the summer it was hot as heck.

I believe my trips to Lincoln (many) galvanized my opinion of Lincoln Welders, probably why I own 2. Not to be left out, I also have a Miller and a Hobart.

My Lincolns all came with a sticker on the case that said 'Proudly made in America by American Workers' and I can say that Lincoln Electric workers are proud of their products and company.

brucer
07-04-2011, 01:53 AM
Over the years, prior to retirement, I hauled many, many tons of HRPD coils and slit material into Lincoln Electric in Euclid, Ohio, for manufacture of electric motors and who knows what else.

I've walked around the plant many times (PPE on of course) and watched everything from the wire extruder machines to coating of SMAW electrodes to the actual building of welders. The employees at Lincoln are friendly, outgoing and ready to explain what they do and show you the quality of the workmanship. Remember, Lincoln is employee owned and each and every employee shares in the profit or in the loss, whatever that is.

Lincoln's steel receiving bay and overhead crane (coild unload via crane and 'C' hook) is located in the same building that Lincoln utilizes to first article test their external driven machines. Machines are pulled from the assembly line at random and literally run to death, continuously, 24/7/365 until they die and then they are taken apart to see what failed and the failed parts redesigned. I've watched the process first hand.

The machines aren't just run, they run under 100% load, cycled on and off and on and off until they die. There are portable resistor banks for the smaller machines and a water fall cooled bank for the bigger machines.

It was nice in the winter with the radiant heat from the resistors but in the summer it was hot as heck.

I believe my trips to Lincoln (many) galvanized my opinion of Lincoln Welders, probably why I own 2. Not to be left out, I also have a Miller and a Hobart.

My Lincolns all came with a sticker on the case that said 'Proudly made in America by American Workers' and I can say that Lincoln Electric workers are proud of their products and company.

copy and pasted directly from lincolns site..

1999
In January of 1999, Lincoln Electric established a majority-held, joint venture electrode plant in the Philippines with distributor partners. During the American Welding Society's International Welding and Fabricating Exposition in St. Louis, Lincoln unveiled some never-before-seen products including the Multi-Weld™ system, designed for welding large structures, and the Power MIG™: The Professional Choice, 255 combination wire feeder/welder. Lincoln Electric also debuted a host of new electrodes including SuperArc® and SuperGlide® premium MIG wires, SuperGlaze® aluminum welding wire and Excalibur™ 7018 low hydrogen electrodes.

Also in 1999, the company completed the sale of its motor business to the Marathon Division of Regal-Beloit, preserving Guaranteed Employment Policy through the process.

2000
Lincoln Electric acquires C.I.F.E. Spa, an Italian manufacturer of welding consumables and Europe’s premier producer of MIG wire. Acquisition solidifies the Company’s position as a leader in the European welding consumables business. Production begins in Lincoln’s new manufacturing facility in Brazil.

2001
The Company expands its operations in South America with the acquisition of Messer Soldaduras de Venezuela, the country’s leading manufacturer of consumable welding products. The David C. Lincoln Technology Center is completed, ensuring Lincoln Electric’s leadership position in product development.

2002
The acquisition of Bester S.A., a welding equipment manufacturer based in Poland, drives the Company’s growth in Eastern Europe. The Company forms Lincoln Electric Welding, Cutting, Tools and Accessories, Inc., dedicated to growing the retail channel.

2003
Lincoln Electric complements its successful line of retail products with the acquisition of the Century and Marquette welding and battery charger brands, which have leading positions in the automotive aftermarket and retail channels.

2004
Acquisitions of controlling interests in three welding businesses in China are completed, giving Lincoln Electric a leading share of that growing market. U.S. Secretary of Commerce Donald L. Evans visits Lincoln Electric’s Cleveland headquarters, citing the Company as a prime example of America’s manufacturing strength. John M. Stropki is named Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer, becoming only the seventh Chairman in the Company’s history.
2005
Lincoln Electric acquires J.W. Harris Co., a global leader in brazing and soldering alloys, to broaden the Company’s solutions capabilities and complement its core product lines. Lincoln leads the welding industry in achieving ISO 14001 certification, the environmental standard.

2006
The acquisition of Metrode Products Limited, a UK-based manufacturer of nickel-based cored wire and stick electrode consumables, expands the Company’s offering of specialty consumables for the process and power generation industries.

Lincoln Electric earns the President’s “E-Star” Award for its excellent exports program.

2007
Lincoln Electric invests in expanding its global manufacturing footprint, the largest undertaking in its history, constructing or upgrading 10 plants throughout the world.

The acquisition of Vernon Tool Company, a manufacturer of computer-controlled pipe cutting equipment, expands Lincoln’s automation solutions, while acquisitions in China and Poland further enhance the Company’s global market position.

2008
President George W. Bush visits Lincoln Electric’s world headquarters in Euclid, Ohio, tours the manufacturing campus and praises the Company’s employees for their global competitiveness.

Ohio Governor Ted Strickland honors Lincoln Electric as the state’s Large Business Exporter of the Year and attends the grand opening of the Company’s Automation Center of Excellence.

The acquisition of Brastak in Brazil expands the Company’s offering of brazing products and its Electro-Arco acquisition in Portugal adds to its manufacturing capacity in Europe.

2009
Focusing on the future while managing through a challenging economic environment, Lincoln Electric introduces 108 new products within a nine-month period, including the VRTEX™ 360, a virtual welding training system.

The Company opens a 100,000-square-foot welding consumables facility in Chennai, India, to serve growing demand in the Asia Pacific region.

Lincoln Electric also acquires full ownership of Jinzhou Jin Tai Welding and Metal Co. to expand its manufacturing capacity in China, the fastest growing welding market in the world.

seems like Lincoln is producing more jobs overseas than here in the USA.

usmcpop
07-04-2011, 03:49 AM
... seems like Lincoln is producing more jobs overseas than here in the USA.

Thus bringing home some money to offset the profits sent overseas from the foreign companies here. :D

SidecarFlip
07-04-2011, 11:12 AM
Thus bringing home some money to offset the profits sent overseas from the foreign companies here. :D

It's about a global economy. Like stated above, the money comes here not leaves here. Keep in mind that Lincoln is an ESOP. The employees themselves determine the route the company takes.

LS Starrett has, for years, had a manufacturing facility in San Paulo, Brazil (Webber Gage Division).

All Webber gage blocks, height masters and digital encoders are manufactured in Brazil and Webber is the industry standard for accuracy.

Again, the money comes back, in this case to LS Starrett, Athol, Mass.

Far as Everlast or Longevity, other than the domestic distributors paying taxes, none of the funds return to this economy. They all go toward furthering the economies of China or wherever the units are made at.

When it's all going out the door and little comes back, our economy here becomes a servant economy instead of a productive economy.

As an individual, it's your perrogative entirely, whether to support the domestic economy or the economy of a foreign country. My personal agenda leans toward supporting the domestic economy by purchasing hard goods (if at all possible) made here, on US Soil.

It's vitally important (at least to me) that domestic industry stays viable, provides jobs (for all of us) and contributes to the welfare of the country.

Once we become a servant economy (hopefully that will never happen), everyone's standard of living degrades to the point or level of the countries that are providing the hard goods to us. My comment is...You want to live and exist like they do in China?

brucer
07-08-2011, 11:37 PM
Thus bringing home some money to offset the profits sent overseas from the foreign companies here. :D


still seems they're spending alot more money overseas than they are at home.




sidecarflip, i agree, but we are losing an uphill battle against the white collar bean counters...

Wyoming
07-09-2011, 10:10 AM
still seems they're spending alot more money overseas than they are at home.
sidecarflip, i agree, but we are losing an uphill battle against the white collar bean counters...

Makes good business sense for them to do so. The U.S. manufacture of goods for sale to the various foreign markets would be a disaster once shipping, higher wages, cost of manufacturing and import duties, if any, are factored in. Better to see Lincoln diversifying overseas with their manufacturing for those markets in order that Lincoln stays a strong and viable presence here AND overseas. The Chinese can make money by shipping goods half way around the world simply because much of their industry is subsidized, labor is cheap AND expendable, environmental laws are ignored and their currency is artificially kept to a low against the U.S. dollar. White collar bean counters or not, try to say we can compete overseas against those odds with American manufactured products when the average U.S. shopper can't stay out of WalMart or ordering ChiCom crap from Harbor Freight. Lincoln should be applauded for their business sense.

Sberry
07-09-2011, 05:26 PM
One big thing is Lincoln and these other welding equipment companies know their business, they haven't been bought up by a bunch of accountant investment banker types,,, usually to cut cost short term to boost profits in a couple quarters, these guys look ahead.

Joe from NY
01-13-2012, 12:41 AM
Thus bringing home some money to offset the profits sent overseas from the foreign companies here. :D


Makes good business sense for them to do so. ... Lincoln should be applauded for their business sense.

What???

There are many American companies with alot of income made outside the US. Most of the time they do not bring any of that money back here, so it does not help us. It might help some chinese factory worker improve his standard of living, but it doesnt help out an American worker.

See this list of What US Companies Have the Most Untaxed Foreign Income? (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/04/what-us-companies-have-the-most-untaxed-foreign-income/)

Usually, if an American company makes stuff all over the world, the only Americans benefiting from it are the absurdly overpaid upper management hacks that are the ones responsible for sending the jobs out of the country in the first place.


I cant see how anyone can delude themselves into believing that an American company making things in china or europe for sale all over the world is better than if that company actually made those things here in a US factory with American workers making a living wage, thereby boosting the middle class across this country.

Brand X
01-13-2012, 01:43 PM
This thread is starting to remind me of the Man on the moon project. Everybody was worried about all that money going to the moon,in reality it all stayed right here. :D

FWI
01-17-2012, 06:14 PM
I subscribe to the theory, "You get what you pay for" For a hobbyist, home owner, tinkerer it would probably be fine but if you plan on logging hours daily, I would really do some research.

"A Fool and his money are soon parted"