airgas leases?

[brucer]

coming from a guy i know which had a lifetime lease with airgas.. he was informed yesterday that airgas no longer honors a lifetime lease..

they wanted him to reup with a 1yr lease, he told them they needed to honor the lifetime lease he purchased yrs ago.. they said they wouldnt honor it... he told them to come and get the bottles they would be at the end of his driveway..

this isnt the first i've heard this, someone else in my area said they had the same thing happen to them...
dont know if this is just my local airgas or what...

it wouldnt suprise me if it was, seems like everytime i go into my local airgas they try to shaft me, whether its contents or consumables.. it got bad enough i took my business elsewhere..

anyone else hear anything about the leases??

[SidecarFlip]

I just caught the tail end the other day. If I want an AG bottle larger than 40Cuft in any gas, I have to lease the bottle but I have to be a commercial entity (which I am) and provide proof of that (which I can). In other words, AG will not lease any bottle larger than 40 Cuft to an individual.

However, they will sell outright smaller bottles. I have 2, a 20 spare argon and a spare (20) 75-25 (in case I run low). The little bottles are easy to store and out of sight is out of mind...unril you need one ro finish a job.

According to the AG manager, they have no problem filling my large bottles and/or exchanging them, which I've done for years now.

I just bought another new 40 from IOC today. Can't have too many and I don't like buying used bottles from individuals.

It's ambigious and it's capricious but it's business. I have a commercial account there so it's no problem for me. I can see where it would be a big problem for an individual.

I still have no problem with AG. My local store has great prices and fantastic service. I just took my Meco ultralight in for a new O2 valve and they had it in store...even put it in, no charge.

[brucer]

i guess what airgas is trying to say is screw the individual. we need them, so we can screw them over even more ,so Airgas can bend over backwards for the larger companies.

they want an individual paying 3 times as much for contents is what theyre doing..

i'm done with airgas. for sure now, i've tried to do business with them on several occasions in the past, because theyre local and trying to support a local business.. not anymore

they cant come close to prices on anything.
i've priced tig welders and mig welders through them, seems like they think theyre the only place to buy from or something, its nearly a joke.. then i have to go home and call Indiana Oxygen and order a lincoln 180c with a cart, and also a thermal arc 185 (this was about 3 yrs ago) and have them on my door in 2 days.. yea its not a large purchase, for a company, but its decent for an individual off the street like myself to drop in the store and lay out nearly $3000 on 2 welders. IOC even give me a discount on the purchase, they were very good to do business with.. i'm not plugging IOC either...
they just treated me very good as a customer , i bet they treat a company even better.

maybe its just my local airgas, but it sure puts a bad enough taste in my mouth to just stay away from any Airgas..

I'll keep getting my bottles filled at Weld-rite.

rant over..

heres a reciept from weld-rite.. one 135 cu.ft and one 125 cu.ft argon and c25.. hope the pic turned out ok... is this a fair price? they also deliver upon request free of charge.. :D

[SidecarFlip]

Don't blame it on the retailer. It's your government at work. Eventually, all suppliers will hve to comply with the Department of Homeland Security mandates concerning what they view as substances that can be used for weapons. Everything changed after 9-11....

I buy H2O2 in bulk. Usually 15 gallon carboys of 35% food grade from VanWaters & Rodgers (Univar). The mandate now states that I have to buy multiple 15 gallon carboys even though one lasts me a year for my use. I also have to provide a certified copy of my birth certificate, a picture ID and proof of my physical address plus I have to sign a sworn statement that I won't use the Hydrogen Peroxide to produce weapons of mass destruction.

I inject it in my well water to precipitate the sulfur dioxide from a gaseous state to a removable solid.

I'd like to see this country get back to the basic premise that most citizens are honest, law biding and upstanding instead of the current tack that everyone is a terrorist.

Companies, Air Gas included, have to abide by the laws set forth or face the consequences.

[SidecarFlip]

Additionally...

It's common knowledge on here that I have 2 .com sites and I sell motorcycle acessories worldwide. much like IOC has a website and sells their products (and others from other manufacturers) on line. However...

It plainly states on their website (and mine) that in state sales are taxed. That is the law. I don't pay tax on gas purchases, I have a commercial account. Same with equipment. I have a tax ID. Individuals usually don't and individuals pay sales tax because it's end use. That's you.

Also. Your LWS has built in expenses like rent for the premisis, real estate tax (if they own the building), heat, electricity, personnel...in short a lot of expenses that figure into the price of the goods they sell and the key words here are..LOCALLY AND CONVEINENT FOR YOU.

IOC isn't going to be there if you need something right now. 2 days isn't right now.

Don't be judgemental and comparison shop when you are comparing on an uneven playing field. For one, it's not fair and you need to support your local retailer because he's there when you need it NOW.

I'm not overjoyed about rules and regulations that effect my business. However, just because I too buy from Internet retailers, IOC included, I still support the local guy. It's good for me, him, the local economy and he'll be there for that instant purchase. The Internet seller won't.

[dda52]

Cylinder rules are very area specific. I can buy any size I want at certain stores here ....and anything under 150cuft at the rest. I just buy them outright now and do not mess around with any leases. That way I can go to any store I want and swap them out. I don't like being tied to one store....and I refuse to deal with Airgas unless its an emergency. YMMV

[brucer]

Cylinder rules are very area specific. I can buy any size I want at certain stores here ....and anything under 150cuft at the rest. I just buy them outright now and do not mess around with any leases. That way I can go to any store I want and swap them out. I don't like being tied to one store....and I refuse to deal with Airgas unless its an emergency. YMMV

yes, but what the others are saying is eventually your not going to be able to purchase or have filled anything over 40cuft bottle if your an individual without a tax id number (a business license).. at that point airgas is charging 3 times the amount to fill a 40cu.ft. bottle, i currently pay $20 for a 125cu.ft fill... their charging $20 for 40cu.ft bottle...

so their effectively taking advantage of a law supposedly aimed at a terrorist, and effectively turning over a 100% profit off of the common citizen.. they are basicly going to triple the cost of contents to an individual, but a business wont be effected...

when it comes time, i guess i'll just go through a local business and get my bottles.. or just get a business license.. at that point it would be worth it to get a business license just to get bottles and consumables... for that matter what would stop a terrorist from doing that anyways? nothing will stop them if they dont want to be stopped.. go to a local gun dealer and look around.. how much gunpowder,diesel fuel, ammonia,drano can you buy at one time? how many propane tanks can you buy from a quickstop/pantry/kangaroo/7eleven at one time.. i'm definetly not a terrorist, but a bomb isnt gonna be to hard to make in this country or any country for that matter, if they want to make one they will find a way to do it.... how big a bomb you think 50 gallons of gas under 150 psi pressure, in a van packed with 20 20lb bottles of propane be? i wouldnt want to be within 2 city blocks of it..


if it is a law thats doing this, these business' that are filling the bottles are taking advantage of it.. they're as bad as the terrorists...

when manufacturing is dead in this country because the government wont get off their a$$ and do anything about it, and 80% of the population wont be able to work because of the manufacturing segment is all but dried up and gone out of the country. the rest will be crying the blues, just like the d@mned banks now already have, they get bailed out... and why, because the government fukked up and let the manufacturing segment of the country simply leave and go to mexico, brazil, and china.. why you think all the bankruptcies come about? think those manufacturing jobs leaving the country had anything to do with it? i bet 70% of it was that.. the other 30% was the crooked bankers buying up oil futures and then opec seen it, dropped the bottom out of the oil market and the banks lost their a$$es because of it.. then opec simply raised the prices on the barrel of oil and made their money back and then some..
and look who had to pay for, every taxpayer in the country, the ones at fault the government and the banks didnt have to pay $hit..

capitalism is simply failing, to many crooks in the system. who do you thank for it? Free Trade Agreement ring a bell?

[dda52]

yes, but what the others are saying is eventually your not going to be able to purchase or have filled anything over 40cuft bottle if your an individual without a tax id number (a business license).. at that point airgas is charging 3 times the amount to fill a 40cu.ft. bottle, i currently pay $20 for a 125cu.ft fill... their charging $20 for 40cu.ft bottle...




Doubt it. They have been telling me that on here since 9/11. Fact is there is no plans for it here at all according to every LWS I asked. Barring some sort of national law being put in place, it won't happen here. Lets face it, shielding gas can't be a weapon unless you bop someone with the cyl.:rolleyes: That and there has never ever been an attack using any type of compressed gas. It just isn't feasible to be weaponized.

As to the tax ID number, they do not exist here for contractors such as myself. I severely doubt TX would even give you one if you asked since it isn't needed. Who knows, it may even be illegal. Plus, I do not need a business license to operate at all...and that is perfectly legal as well. I own 13 cylinders consisting of mostly 125's with a third being 150's. I own them outright...no lease or anything. I also have a guarantee for them to be filled by the selling vendor. I'm not worried. Been doing this way too long to be worried. It is a different world here compared to the north, northeast and east and west coasts. Very different.:rolleyes:

[brucer]

Doubt it. They have been telling me that on here since 9/11. Fact is there is no plans for it here at all according to every LWS I asked. Barring some sort of national law being put in place, it won't happen here. Lets face it, shielding gas can't be a weapon unless you bop someone with the cyl.:rolleyes: That and there has never ever been an attack using any type of compressed gas. It just isn't feasible to be weaponized.

As to the tax ID number, they do not exist here for contractors such as myself. I severely doubt TX would even give you one if you asked since it isn't needed. Who knows, it may even be illegal. Plus, I do not need a business license to operate at all...and that is perfectly legal as well. I own 13 cylinders consisting of mostly 125's with a third being 150's. I own them outright...no lease or anything. I also have a guarantee for them to be filled by the selling vendor. I'm not worried. Been doing this way too long to be worried. It is a different world here compared to the north, northeast and east and west coasts. Very different.:rolleyes:

I'm in western ky, not east or west, pretty much in the middle of the country.. i also dont have to have a business license to operate either...

what i'm saying is my local airgas isnt honoring their lifetime leases anymore, and forcing people that have already paid a lifetime lease now pay for a yearly lease.. they dont swap 125cu.ft. bottles to an individual anymore and havent since like 2007 i think. if you use airgas here, you have to use airgas bottles unless they are the 40 cu.ft. or smaller bottles, they will refill those..

i even had them one time try to swap me one of their bottles for mine that i owned, of course the bottle they wanted me to have was marked airgas, so that would have put me into their system with their bottle and if i would have let them swap,it would have basicly been me giving them a free bottle.. because after the swap i would have one of their bottles, then they could say that was their bottle i had, then convieniently start charging me rent or a lease for it.. my local airgas does not deal with customer owned bottles unless they're smaller than 40cu.Ft. might even be 20 cu.ft. and havent for several yrs.. you either rent or lease the 125cu.ft or larger bottle from them and thats it... its been a while since i had my smaller 20 cu.ft. bottle filled so i cant be certain..

evidently the way i'm understanding sidecarflip is that the largest bottle an individual is going to be able to have filled is going to be a 40cu.ft. bottle which effectively costs 3 times as much to fill as a 125cu.ft. bottle.. and what i'm understanding, or what it sounds like to me is that its probably going to be the larger suppliers such as airgas a praxair that will lead because theyre national suppliers, then the smaller companies will follow..

i hope this isnt the case, but this is what i'm starting to hear around hear anyways..

i think i'm going to call them next week and verify some information..

[dda52]

I understand what you are saying. Just do yourself a huge favor...run away from the schmucks at Airgas. I have been in this business for nearly 3 decades now and Airgas has to be the worst outfit I have ever run across. Go to Tractor Supply or somewhere like that if its too bad. Airgas isn't the only option in the world even though they try to convince you of it.:rolleyes:

[brucer]

thats pretty much what i've figured out here lately...

i wasnt to impressed with my local airgas in the past, actually disappointed. i changed to a smaller lws 30-45minutes away to get bottles filled, but they also have free delivery with notice and i get argon and c25 at a third the cost. so its kind of a win situation for me..

just wanted to bring it to others attention to see if i was hearing the local guy correct..

guess i was..

[monckywrench]

LWS quality differs massively between branches and depends greatly on who runs them. Pricing structure can differ too depending on competition.

My local Airgas is outstanding, and were as helpful when I was a noob in welding school as they are when I make large company purchases.

Airgas training (I'm nosy and ask a lot of questions) seems to be somewhat focused on buzzword compliance. IMO the parent company should visit my local Airgas (Sumter, SC) to see a crew of good folks who know how to treat and retain customers.

They should also post threads in the major welding forums asking how to improve customer service.

[SidecarFlip]

I'm in western ky, not east or west, pretty much in the middle of the country.. i also dont have to have a business license to operate either...

what i'm saying is my local airgas isnt honoring their lifetime leases anymore, and forcing people that have already paid a lifetime lease now pay for a yearly lease.. they dont swap 125cu.ft. bottles to an individual anymore and havent since like 2007 i think. if you use airgas here, you have to use airgas bottles unless they are the 40 cu.ft. or smaller bottles, they will refill those..

i even had them one time try to swap me one of their bottles for mine that i owned, of course the bottle they wanted me to have was marked airgas, so that would have put me into their system with their bottle and if i would have let them swap,it would have basicly been me giving them a free bottle.. because after the swap i would have one of their bottles, then they could say that was their bottle i had, then convieniently start charging me rent or a lease for it.. my local airgas does not deal with customer owned bottles unless they're smaller than 40cu.Ft. might even be 20 cu.ft. and havent for several yrs.. you either rent or lease the 125cu.ft or larger bottle from them and thats it... its been a while since i had my smaller 20 cu.ft. bottle filled so i cant be certain..

evidently the way i'm understanding sidecarflip is that the largest bottle an individual is going to be able to have filled is going to be a 40cu.ft. bottle which effectively costs 3 times as much to fill as a 125cu.ft. bottle.. and what i'm understanding, or what it sounds like to me is that its probably going to be the larger suppliers such as airgas a praxair that will lead because theyre national suppliers, then the smaller companies will follow..

i hope this isnt the case, but this is what i'm starting to hear around hear anyways..

i think i'm going to call them next week and verify some information..

Not exactly. What I said was the largest bottle you can buy outright (filled) for refilling here in Michigan is a 40 cuft. And possibly elsewhere as well. I say elsewhere because if you go to IOC's website and click on cylinders for sale, you'll quickly see the largest offered is 40 cuft (empty).

Now, if you already have larger bottles, you can get them filled or exchanged at AirGas, I do it all the time. My O2 bottle resembles a Polaris submarine and my acetylene bottle....the Hindenburg.

Finallly, at least at my local AirGas, you have to have a commercial account, as in Tax ID, and registered business name to LEASE any bottle over 40 cuft. I can LEASE a ganged set of acetylene bottles or a stainless cryo O2 tank but I can't purchase them.

My bottles are all owned. That's not to say that I have the original bottles because I exchange but I have titles for each bottle I have.

My big gas consumer was my heat wrench. I don't use it that much anymore. but my cart is set up for the BIG bottles and I'm not getting anothetr cart.

I have no problem with 40's, just as long as I have multiples, which I do.

[seanmurphy265]

My Dad sold welding supplies at a locally owned welding supply company. They had a more relaxed bottle policy, and their lease was actually cheaper than owning the bottles. They charged a once for a lifetime lease, which was cheaper they buying the bottles outright. Over the years they had problems with bottles never coming back, and they had to buy more bottles to replace ones that had been stolen from their customers. It's easier for someone to steal the bottles from a job site, but if they brought it back they would risk getting caught. They would offer a $25.00 reward if people returned old bottles. It was not uncommon for 5 year plus expired bottles to be returned. They supplied a local steel company with gases for over 30 years, when they were undercut by Airgas. This steel company had to pay for over 100 missing bottles. Employees had taken them over the years and would not risk bringing them back.

[Wookie]

here in California i have no problem getting my ownership bottles filled Acetylene 330cf or my similar sized O2 bottle

[padronanniversa]

I wonder how an 125 bottle wold work at airgas if I was just a joe blow off the streets trying to get it filled. How would I know its not owned by them or leased out and them trying to take possession of it.

[monckywrench]

You could just walk in and ask.