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silver hair dee
09-17-2010, 03:55 PM
I'm trying to make a oil dipper for my B & S 18 HP flathead engine , they tell me it must be hardened steel because of the rpm of the engine (2400rpm) , found a hoe blade , due to the shape of it it will have to be cut and welded to get the right shape . can i MIG 1/8 hardened steel and will MIG destroy the heat treatment of the carbon steel , and no i can't afford the cost of a new one , besides if you buy one you learn nothing !!! welder in question is my trusty HH135 with co2 .

THANKS IN ADVANCE

urch55
09-17-2010, 04:31 PM
I personally would not weld it. If that was to shatter at that speed well?? do I need to say more. It could be welded but it won't hold up. Could you post a picture of it and post a ser. Number and Model number. of the engine.

usmcpop
09-17-2010, 08:44 PM
Something smells fishy. Can you post a picture? I have plenty of things around the shop that fly around a lot faster than that and they aren't hardened.

silver hair dee
09-17-2010, 09:37 PM
engine number 422437 0750-01

dipper part number 223053

looks something like this



sorry for crappy picture

urch55
09-17-2010, 09:42 PM
What is the bolt spacing on the connecting rod bolts. Center to center.??

silver hair dee
09-17-2010, 09:56 PM
What is the bolt spacing on the connecting rod bolts. Center to center.??

i'll measure in the morning , i have a problem falling down even in the daylight and on even ground .

urch55
09-17-2010, 10:04 PM
If you can't afford $4.25 maybe the weld talk forums should pass the collection plate.
I was thinking I would come across one, I have scrapped out many of them.
http://www.upstateoutdoorpowerequipment.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/10/1337/145876/118395/default.aspx

SidecarFlip
09-18-2010, 03:03 AM
Ah, it's not hardened, it's tempered. You can actually make the piece from whatever you have laying around...

( I have to defend his idea, I do the same thing rather thay buy a part, I make it. Its more fun......)

Anyway, you can temper it by reheating it to a dull red and quenching in oil and yes, the localozed weld heat will remove the temper.

It's an oil slinger, splash lubrication.....:D

silver hair dee
09-18-2010, 06:33 AM
Ah, it's not hardened, it's tempered. You can actually make the piece from whatever you have laying around...

( I have to defend his idea, I do the same thing rather thay buy a part, I make it. Its more fun......)

Anyway, you can temper it by reheating it to a dull red and quenching in oil and yes, the localozed weld heat will remove the temper.

It's an oil slinger, splash lubrication.....:D

I've made one out of 1/16 mild steel , but have been afraid to use it as everyone has said it has to be hardened steel due to contacting 30 wt oil at ideal to up to 2400 rpm , all i have to heat is propane , is this ok .

silver hair dee
09-18-2010, 06:40 AM
If you can't afford $4.25 maybe the weld talk forums should pass the collection plate.
I was thinking I would come across one, I have scrapped out many of them.
http://www.upstateoutdoorpowerequipment.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/10/1337/145876/118395/default.aspx

I live on a fixed income , with no raise this or next year , we're lucky to have $ 5.00 left at the end of the month , i have to fix everthing i can to save money , thank god for the information on the internet . instead of passing the hat from a lot of other poor members , who are just scrapping to get by , just send me a used one .

urch55
09-18-2010, 08:36 AM
Ah, it's not hardened, it's tempered. You can actually make the piece from whatever you have laying around...

That is a play of words. "Tempered" just means it's been hardened to some degree.
So you say it's "tempered" then it's hardened.

usmcpop
09-18-2010, 09:03 AM
Is there any possibility that the oil slinger is spring tempered because it needs some spring action to help fling the oil?

urch55
09-18-2010, 09:53 AM
Is there any possibility that the oil slinger is spring tempered because it needs some spring action to help fling the oil?

No, because many I have seen is ribbed for strength plus some have a twist at the end to help the splash and as it's moving though it's stroke the flat side is not what cuts though the oil. Many are V or I shaped. Some newer ones are molded on the connecting rod cap in the shape of an ! . They are an aluminum alloy. Picture a keel slicing though the oil. Of course there are many variations I just described the most popular shapes.
You know I have torn down engines and the sling-er is sitting on the bottom of the oil pan.

SidecarFlip
09-18-2010, 09:57 AM
That is a play of words. "Tempered" just means it's been hardened to some degree.
So you say it's "tempered" then it's hardened.

We could go on for literally pages on varoius methods and degrees of hardness and temper as well as controlled atmospheric heat treat but for his simple purpose, the simple answer is to make the part from a piece of steel of unknown metallurgy and heat it with a propane (I prefer a gas axe because you can apply a carbon rich flame to the material) torch, to dull red and quench it in motor oil. Motor oil isn't specific quenching oil but he's not building a rocket. It's an oil slinger.

I've been case hardening as well as tempering material for a long time right on the bench. It might not be Rockwell specific or deformation friendly, but it works. If I need something with a specific value, I send it out to the heat treater.

Roger
09-18-2010, 01:16 PM
Keeping it simple: Tempering is process of heating hardened steel to lower temperature than used for hardening and quenching (quick cooling).
* Improves ductility and toughness
* Reduces cracking
* Improves machinability
* Increases impact resistance
* Improves malleability
* Decreases hardness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering

silver hair dee
09-18-2010, 02:35 PM
No, because many I have seen is ribbed for strength plus some have a twist at the end to help the splash and as it's moving though it's stroke the flat side is not what cuts though the oil. Many are V or I shaped. Some newer ones are molded on the connecting rod cap in the shape of an ! . They are an aluminum alloy. Picture a keel slicing though the oil. Of course there are many variations I just described the most popular shapes.
You know I have torn down engines and the sling-er is sitting on the bottom of the oil pan.


mine is long flat with two bent v fingers at the bottom to fling oil back up onto the rod where there is a hole that goes down to the crank , so whats the verdict , remake of of the tempered hoe blade with welding on two sides where it bolts onto the rod (to keep it straight and not turn ), try to temper what I've made , or ?

mustang0
09-23-2010, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE=SidecarFlip;390774] (I prefer a gas axe because you can apply a carbon rich flame to the material) torch, to dull red and quench it in motor oil. Motor oil isn't specific quenching oil but he's not building a rocket. It's an oil slinger.

Does the carbon rich flame then add a bit of carbon to the metal then?
That would make sense because most mild steels don't have enough carbon in them to harden to any significant degree.

usmcpop
09-23-2010, 02:33 PM
A carbon-rich flame may add some carbon when you are welding with O/A, but it's not going to make a lot of difference if you are just heating something briefly unless you're worried about a little surface decarburization.

SidecarFlip
09-23-2010, 07:17 PM
...and it all depends on the grade of material. People seem to use the term 'mild steel' to cover everything when in actuality there are hundreds of variiants of steel available. Just using a scrap piece for something don't make it 'mild steel'. Could be high carbon flat rolled, akdq, 10x, 50x 100x and so on.

If the scrap piece you are using came from an old garden hoe, I'd presume it's high carbon flat rolled sheet, most likely akdq drawing quality. The reason I say that is well sell Tru-Temper flat rolled high strength material and that's the spec (I looked it up in the files at work). If it's old, it's domestic. If it's newer it's offshore and if it's Harbor Freight, it's junk.

Assuming it's high carbon flat rolled, I'd anneal it prior to any structural changes (drilling holes, bending) and do the oil quench like I said before, after you have the desired part. After all, it's just going to whip the oil around. At idle, it may be splash but at rated rpm, the splash becomes similar to taking a squirtgun and shooting it into a fan.

It's amazing what a good controlled atmosphere heat treater can do with secondary (off prime) steel of questionable chemistry, but that's another story for another time.

silver hair dee
09-23-2010, 08:44 PM
...and it all depends on the grade of material. People seem to use the term 'mild steel' to cover everything when in actuality there are hundreds of variiants of steel available. Just using a scrap piece for something don't make it 'mild steel'. Could be high carbon flat rolled, akdq, 10x, 50x 100x and so on.

If the scrap piece you are using came from an old garden hoe, I'd presume it's high carbon flat rolled sheet, most likely akdq drawing quality. The reason I say that is well sell Tru-Temper flat rolled high strength material and that's the spec (I looked it up in the files at work). If it's old, it's domestic. If it's newer it's offshore and if it's Harbor Freight, it's junk.

Assuming it's high carbon flat rolled, I'd anneal it prior to any structural changes (drilling holes, bending) and do the oil quench like I said before, after you have the desired part. After all, it's just going to whip the oil around. At idle, it may be splash but at rated rpm, the splash becomes similar to taking a squirtgun and shooting it into a fan.

It's amazing what a good controlled atmosphere heat treater can do with secondary (off prime) steel of questionable chemistry, but that's another story for another time.

well someone walked off with my hoe , so what i found was a older hard steel flat (1/16" thick) wrench so thats what i have , I'm trying to redesign so that i only have 2 small weld (for the side braces so it won't turn on the rod bolt ) how does this sound .

urch55
09-24-2010, 10:07 PM
well someone walked off with my hoe , so what i found was a older hard steel flat (1/16" thick) wrench so thats what i have , I'm trying to redesign so that i only have 2 small weld (for the side braces so it won't turn on the rod bolt ) how does this sound .

Are you going to drill a hole though a wrench for the rod bolt?? Then weld two tabs on the sides to keep it from twisting??
I really would like to see you have a new oil dipper (factory made). At least you would know it would not be too heavy. I looked I do not have a used one.

usmcpop
09-25-2010, 09:15 AM
The dipper may be a better grade/heat treated steel because it needs to endure some fatigue over millions of cycles. If you weld on the wrench steel, you can end up with a soft weld and a hard area adjacent to the weld. You could heat/quench/temper the whole thing but your weld won't be the same as the parent metal.

If you do use the wrench and post heat it to prevent a hard zone near the weld, it might still be better than plain old mild steel.

silver hair dee
09-25-2010, 01:44 PM
Well heres what i got done so far , commits and suggestions welcome
sorry for the pictures my camera is one step above a polaroid

vicegrip
09-26-2010, 10:40 AM
Let's recap this, and correct me if I missed something.
It's broke, correct? If you want send it to me along with
the connecting-rod cap and any bolts wahers etc.

I'll repair or copy it, send it back and cover "post'
both ways. I've been the recipient of many-a kindness.
SO ... my turn. No embarrassment applies here.
==================================
OR
B & S ? Briggs and Stratton IS here.
I should be able to find another here (if anywhere).
Forward positive identifying info. And I'll look around.
==============================
OR
If you are going to "make yer Own"
These things need a {Stiffness Transition}
That is why some designs fail.
The slinger either needs to be so rigid it can't flex at all.....
In which case it will be TOO heavy.
OR have a transition from the point where it's fascened
to the tip.
That being rigid @ the point of bolting with a gradual
thinning of either cross-section or width or both.
OR have sides folded forming gussets of reducing
stiffness as they move toward the tip.
++++++++++++++++++++
I would suggest a fresh part made from banding stock.
Simplest way to achieve the transition is a sandwich.
JPEG to follow .............
Hard to draw it but the (buns) are both pre-bent to
just barely have a gap of about 1/3 the banding thickness.
vg

silver hair dee
09-26-2010, 03:49 PM
When i started this , the only thing left of the old one (dipper)was a few oily pieces in the oil pan along with what was left of the 1/2 of the connecting rod , luckily i was able to find a used rod , i bought this motor for scrap prices to Cheaply rebuild to replace my mowing machine motor which is getting long in the tooth and uses oil . but due to money and health I've been over 4 months on it , so any help would be appreciated , and I'm a firm believer in what goes around comes around weather it's kindness or meanness , i seen it to many times not to believe it

vicegrip
09-26-2010, 07:20 PM
I've been over 4 months on it , so any help would be appreciated , and I'm a firm believer in what goes around comes around weather it's kindness or meanness , i seen it to many times not to believe it

PM sent
I'll send another PM once I am sure it's a confirmed delivery.
Hopefully it's all sowed up.
Watch your PM's.
VG

vicegrip
09-26-2010, 10:32 PM
it's available and ordered......
I'll forward it ........
Take Care
vg