75-25 or 82-18

[farmwelder]

I am looking for better penetration out of my 125 amp welder. I am running .25 wire and 75-25 mix. I was wondering if i would have better penetration if i were to switch to 82-18 mix. I also have .23 wire and was wondering if it that would make a big difference or if it would be close to the same.

[SundownIII]

farmwelder,

A straight CO2 covering gas will give you better penetration with your machine.

Never tried an 82/18 mix. Never heard of anyone who uses it.

When I get a chance, I'll dial it up (Thermco mixer) and see if it makes a difference on my HH187. May be a few days, since I'm kinda wrapped up on another project right now.

[ksilinux]

farmwelder,

A straight CO2 covering gas will give you better penetration with your machine.

Never tried an 82/18 mix. Never heard of anyone who uses it.

When I get a chance, I'll dial it up (Thermco mixer) and see if it makes a difference on my HH187. May be a few days, since I'm kinda wrapped up on another project right now.

Our local LWS (Airgas) don't have C25 at all, only 82/18. They call it SteelMix and insist it is better than C25 so they don't carry C25 any more...

[hankj]

Yup, AIRGAS be a PIA anymore. Ain't sure which part is the air and which part is the gas. They like to mix crap like "Steelmix" and "Goldgas". Fulla sh!t, too.

Like III siad, CO² is where to go. You actually get better metal transfer with a totally reactive gas at the low currents the little welders produce.

Hank

[farmwelder]

So i should just run a straight co2 shielding gas? I was running a 75-25 mix and there was hardly any penetration.

[hogan]

you can add 2-6 volts by dropping the co2

[MAC702]

Go with 100% CO2, or if you REALLY need penetration, you'll get the most from a self-shielded flux-cored wire and no gas.

Las Vegas' Airgas only sold me C-16, no C-25. You'll not really notice a difference with your machine, but IF ANYTHING, it'll be a little less penetration. Though, it will allow high power machines to have some more versatility. With C-16, my PowCon 200SM would barely get into spray transfer with .045" solid wire, but I would mostly use it for short arc with my MM175, MM Passport or HH210.

[hogan]

Like III siad, CO² is where to go. You actually get better metal transfer with a totally reactive gas at the low currents the little welders produce.

Hank

That seems a little too encompassing of a statement to me. Metal transfer is more than just digging in. I will admit that penetration is important but what good is 3/16" penetration with no side wall fusion? With this small of a machine you need to make the most of all your variables. The only two that will let you use a wire like ER70s-6 to it potential are gas and stick out ( joint prep is important but not applicable to this discussion ). As stated previously, your gas selection can allow you to more efficiently use your machine. I'm sure other will still disagree with me. I have macro'd 1000's of these, and have been lucky enough to see welders way better than me do amazing things with your setup.

[TEK]

I'm bettin' you'll notice the most difference when you change from that 1/4 inch wire:eek::D:D

[calweld]

I'm bettin' you'll notice the most difference when you change from that 1/4 inch wire:eek::D:D

:rolleyes: :D Prolly just a typo ..... anybody can forget a zero here and there, just make sure you get all the right zero's on the LEFT of the decimal point, that's where they're important,,,,, especially when there is a $ sign involved ..... ;);)

If you're really a "farmwelder", you need a bigger machine anyway ....

[TEK]

spoilsport......sittin' targets are all I can hit nowadays and you're gonna take that from me too?? you're such a meany;):D:D

[calweld]

spoilsport......sittin' targets are all I can hit nowadays .....

As I recall, you were hitting a few targets pretty good in the last month or so,,,,, :D:D:D;)

[SundownIII]

Anybody figure out what Hogan said?

[hogan]

try one sentence at a time

[Broccoli1]

That seems a little too encompassing of a statement to me. Metal transfer is more than just digging in. I will admit that penetration is important but what good is 3/16" penetration with no side wall fusion? With this small of a machine you need to make the most of all your variables. The only two that will let you use a wire like ER70s-6 to it potential are gas and stick out ( joint prep is important but not applicable to this discussion ). As stated previously, your gas selection can allow you to more efficiently use your machine. I'm sure other will still disagree with me. I have macro'd 1000's of these, and have been lucky enough to see welders way better than me do amazing things with your setup.

What gas selection do you recommend?

[hogan]

for the er70s-6 I like the 95-5

[SundownIII]

Hogan,

Is that 95%Argon/5%CO2 or 95%Argon/5%O2.

For spray transfer I've used 92%Argon/8%CO2 and 98%Argon/2%O2 but I've never used either of these mixes for short arc.

Are you really recommending this mix for short arc transfer, since the OP is limited to that with the machine he has.

Straight CO2 (if he wants to use gas) or flux core (as Mac stated) will give him the max results with the machine he has.

If you've never used 100% CO2 you should try it. There's a reason that Miller packages a small CO2 bottle with the Passport Series.

[MAC702]

... There's a reason that Miller packages a small CO2 bottle with the Passport Series.

There's no question it works very well, and has even been specially tuned to work better with it, but it also works extremely well with an argon/CO2 mix.

The internal CO2 is practical from a pressure and usability standpoint, which is why that's the gas also used for paintball guns.

But in general, I highly recommend CO2 as a general purpose GMAW gas. Unless you are welding very thick or very thin, you'll get much better economy for very little extra spatter.

[hogan]

sun
I will reply just a little busy right now

[hogan]

Sundown,
Sorry I took a bit to respond. The gas I referred to is Ar-O2 and that will require welding in flat or horiz. Yes i am recommending the use of this for improved penetration. The reduction of CO2 will improve available voltage by a couple of volts. Also, a 125 amp machine will spray a .025" wire. Changing the transfer will add to your efficiency, from 93% to 98%. Could the CO2 be supplied as an all in one, in regards to position?

[Broccoli1]

So i should just run a straight co2 shielding gas? I was running a 75-25 mix and there was hardly any penetration.

I guess we really need to dig into this statement- regardless of Gas choice.

We don't even know the material thickness- could be the problem to begin with.

All we know is .025 and a 125 amp machine.

[SundownIII]

Hogan,

If you say a 125A machine will spray .023 wire with a 95%Argon/5%O2 mix, I'll have to take your word for it. My tables do not even show spray values for .023 wire. I've never done spray with a 120V machine. Even if the machine will reach spray, I suspect that the duty cycle would be such that it would not be a viable option.

I do have a HH187 which is used for short arc transfer only. If the situation dictates spray transfer, that's when I fire up the MM251. I've used both the 92%Argon/8%CO2 and the 98%Argon/2%O2 with good results on that machine.

My basic feeling is that the 120v migs are very limited in their capability. If the job required spray transfer with a 120v machine, you'd be better served moving up to a 240v mig.

Most people use the 120v machines for light duty work. That's where the 120v machine with C25 shines. (Light gauge material and minimal spatter). CO2 is also a "general purpose" gas which will yield slightly more spatter but better penetration. 95%Argon/5%O2 is not a "general purpose" gas and will not perform well at all in short arc transfer (where most 120v migs operate).

[hogan]

SundownIII,
I agree with everything in your last post. I don't think I have seen a filler manufacture list spray parameters for anything under .035.

Will .025 spray with a 125 amp machine......yes
Will anything other than thin gage need joint prep......yes
Will the duty cycle be particle for more than say 10min of work......no
Will spraying .025 be recommended for a unexperienced welder......no

[TonyMo]

I just got my first bottle of shielding gas; C20. I got it at the large local steel company who have been very helpful to a nooby like me. They carry a limited supply of gas and don't have C25 only C20 (80% argon/20% CO2) because that is what they use in their welding shop.
Since I have never used C25 I have nothing to compare it to.
I'm using it with a 220v Lincoln Mig Pak 15 and .030 ERS-70S-6 wire.
I just know it's a whole lot cleaner than flux core.

[metarinka]

running that welder you probalby won't be able to tell the difference between C20 and C25, C20 can spray but probably not at settings you would want to run at.

For the record if your welding clean material you can drop from 70s-6 to 70S-2. The deoxidizers do just that deoxidize the weld metal, which also makes the wire more sluggish and difficult. We use 70s-2 because it's easier just to prep the metal a little better rather than use wire with a bunch of junk in it

[TonyMo]

^^^
because it's easier just to prep the metal a little better

So, if I understand this, with shielding gas I could use 70s-2 on new steel and get better results, save the 70s-6 for somewhat dirtier/older steel?

[hankj]

^^^

So, if I understand this, with shielding gas I could use 70s-2 on new steel and get better results, save the 70s-6 for somewhat dirtier/older steel?

Tony,

I doubt you'll notice any difference between the wires on your machine. Around here, you won't see any S-2 wire on any LWS shelves. You'd have to order it. S-6 is just so common that nobody gives it a second thought.

I certainly don't notice any "sluggishness" running S-6 wire on my MM 210.

Hank

[metarinka]

Tony,

I doubt you'll notice any difference between the wires on your machine. Around here, you won't see any S-2 wire on any LWS shelves. You'd have to order it. S-6 is just so common that nobody gives it a second thought.

I certainly don't notice any "sluggishness" running S-6 wire on my MM 210.

Hank

that's true to a degree, I try to limit deoxidizers in my wire whenever possible (unless of course I'm having porosity issues)
70s-3 and 70s-4 are common and I would pick those over 70s-6. if you ever get 2 spools run them side by side at the exact same parameters and see how they weld up. It's not earth shattering, but the difference is noticeable.

Joint cleanliness and preparation will do well for penetration issues. What time of joint prep is going on?

[Dan]

ER70S-2 contains a higher level of de-oxidizers then ER70S-6. ER70S-6 produces a fluid puddle that wets out well to the toes of the weld bead. ER70S-2 produces a sluggish weld puddle that doesn't wet out anywhere near as good as an ER70S-6 weld puddle does.

[Hotfoot]

What brand of 125 amp machine? Hobart has had 120 and 130...I am curious as to not only the make, but the wiring circuit, extension cord, etc. Just because FarmWelder assumes a different gas will give him better penetration, doesn't automatically mean that's where the problem lies. Also, what thickness materail is he experiencing the lack of penetration on?:confused:

[FarmBoy9205]

^^^

So, if I understand this, with shielding gas I could use 70s-2 on new steel and get better results, save the 70s-6 for somewhat dirtier/older steel?

Since my work involves a lot of rusty steel, I like gas shielded flux wire E71T-1 with CO2. With this wire the puddle flows nice, can run good verticals. The slag is real minimal and comes off real easy and protects the weld while it cools. If you can run 0.035 wire, Lincoln makes it in 10# spools. I am just unsure if 125 amps would be enough.