Can't get arc with a 7018???

[Micah22]

Forgive the probable ignorance of this question, I'm just getting started into welding. I've taken a welding class and can run a pretty good bead if the machine is setup correctly - thats where I struggle.

I just got my own machine setup, a Lincon AC225. We used 1/8 7018 rods in our course and I laid down a good bead with them so I picked some up to just use as test rods.

For the life of me I could not strike an arc with those things. They would spark and stick, but never arced and started to lay a bead. I know I either got the wrong rods or my machine isn't right for them. I just need help to figure out which it is.

The setup:
Welder: Lincon AC225
Rods: quickstrike brand E7018 1/8"
Material being welded: 3/4" steel rod
Amps tried: 75-125 and about everywhere in between

The ironic thing is that I was worried about the 1/16" 6013 rods welding on the exhaust project I had, and they were the ones that wet down smooth and easy.

Can anyone educate me on why this setup isn't working?

[gnewby]

Make sure you are getting the AC 7018's and not the AC/DC 7018's. I had an old Forney welder that I could not get an arc out of on the AC/DC rods, I could though with the AC 7018's. Sometimes it would take a little doings to get the Arc started but had good results after once getting it going.

[villemur]

I've had the same problem with standard 7018 rods on my old AC Hobart welder. As gnewby said, get some 7018AC rods and you'll be fine. If you had a DC machine, the rods that you have now would work fine.

I believe that problem is the low open circuit voltage of most homeowner type machines. For whatever reason standard 7018 rods don't burn well on AC with low open circuit voltage.

[Micah22]

I figured it was something like that. Only other welders I've used were AC/DC so I wasn't sure.

So will I need to make sure ANY rods I get now are AC and not AC/DC?

[villemur]

No, there might be some oddball exceptions, but almost any other rod will run fine on your machine, unless it is a DC only rod (like 6010). 6011, 6013, and 7014 will be fine. 7014 seems to run real nice on my AC stick machine.

[Zrexxer]

I figured it was something like that. Only other welders I've used were AC/DC so I wasn't sure.

So will I need to make sure ANY rods I get now are AC and not AC/DC?
OK, let's clear up a common misunderstanding about 7018 vs 7018AC. All AWS E7018 electrodes are designed to run on AC or DC+. The designation of the 7018AC electrodes that were mentioned really has nothing to do with polarity - they're designed to work well on small transformer welders with low open circuit voltage. Most of these small welders or "buzzboxes" are AC only, hence the designation. However, a 7018AC will run AC or DC+.

The Lincoln 225AC is one of the exact machines these were designed for. Another benefit of the 7018AC is they have a relatively easy re-strike compared to conventional 7018s, which will often form a ball of glass-like material at the tip if you break the arc before the rod's consumed.

There isn't a concern with other electrodes, as long as you're not using something designated strictly DC, as Villemur said - like E6010.

[Micah22]

Thanks guys, as usual when I visit this board I got just the info I needed;):D

Cheers!

[weldgault]

Forgive the probable ignorance of this question, I'm just getting started into welding. I've taken a welding class and can run a pretty good bead if the machine is setup correctly - thats where I struggle.

I just got my own machine setup, a Lincon AC225. We used 1/8 7018 rods in our course and I laid down a good bead with them so I picked some up to just use as test rods.

For the life of me I could not strike an arc with those things. They would spark and stick, but never arced and started to lay a bead. I know I either got the wrong rods or my machine isn't right for them. I just need help to figure out which it is.

The setup:
Welder: Lincon AC225
Rods: quickstrike brand E7018 1/8"
Material being welded: 3/4" steel rod
Amps tried: 75-125 and about everywhere in between

The ironic thing is that I was worried about the 1/16" 6013 rods welding on the exhaust project I had, and they were the ones that wet down smooth and easy.

Can anyone educate me on why this setup isn't working?


Your current is to low for 1/8" 7018 (125-140). John

[Rocky D]

I agree current too low...they run great between 110 to 165 amps. according to Miller. You might want to pick up a set of Miller welding calculators from their site.

[Micah22]

I could have sworn I tried up to 125 at least. I'll give them another go before I give up, I'll also check out the miller site as well thanks.

[gnewby]

Micah the old AC Forney I had was about 185 amp machine if I remember correctly, I tried about every plug end setting for it with no luck on the AC/DC 7018. Once I got the AC 7018 I was able to run them right in the 110-115.

[Billyjoe]

I don't understand what you all are taking about ac or dc 7018 ??????????
I have a 225 lincon in my shop- I run a sa200 dc gas rig on my truck ,What you are taking about is all wrong , The 225 will run ac or dc rod ,your shop welder you need to check your ground to make sure it ground ,then turn that machine up ,you are welding to cold . and if you start welding an it stickes clean off the flucks on the end of your rod and start again , it not the rod it in the ground or you are welding to cold I run a 7018 about 140 to 145 amps
on flat plat , I could be wrong but I'v welding 36 years.just get a 7018 ,an if it stickes turn that puppy up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Blacksmith]

Got to agree with Billy Joe, I haven't been welding for 36 years, but I could always get an arc; maybe not a good weld, but always an arc. Make sure you have a good work lead (ground) connection; clean metal, strong clamp, good wire connections and turn that puppy up. Make sure the weld site is clean too. You want every amp/volt being used in your arc, not being wasted in poor connections and penetrating paint, rust, and dirt.

[thingy]

turn it wide open,than see,if nothing than its not the rod,,thingy

[Hammack_Welding]

Yes, you MAY be able to run a regular 7018 on a 225 AC Lincoln, but for someone starting out they never will. I have an old 400 amp Lincoln AC machine and it will pull a standard 7018 fine. However, a 225 won't. There's more to welding than turning up the machine and making the rod burn. I personally have never seen an AC 225 that could pull a DC 7018 and satisfy me with the weld quality. I recommend the 7018AC in the 125-150 amp range as stated above.

[canoetrpr]

The Lincoln 225AC is one of the exact machines these were designed for. Another benefit of the 7018AC is they have a relatively easy re-strike compared to conventional 7018s, which will often form a ball of glass-like material at the tip if you break the arc before the rod's consumed.


Is there any reason at all why one shouldn't seek out 7018AC rods if welding with DC+ then? Is there a reason to go with the straight 7018 and have to deal with the glass-like stuff?

[kmaysob123]

i have had my ac225 for about 2 years now and never had a problem with the 7018 rod. i had never heard of the 7018 ac until i started lurking here and welding web.i will be upgrading to the pt225 in 3 weeks

[fillncap]

This sounds like what the other guys have mentioned not got enough voltage.7018 electrodes usually need a minimum of 70 ocv.

fnc

[Sberry]

Is there any reason at all why one shouldn't seek out 7018AC rods if welding with DC+ then? Is there a reason to go with the straight 7018 and have to deal with the glass-like stuff?
The DC version is more stabil for out of position work, the puddle is not quite so fluid and it comes in a variety of flavors, not so important to the DIY crowd but industry uses them.

[toolaholic]

Always, each time I pull the rod out of the puddle, I run My gloved fore finger
sideways across the rod, to clean off the ;)flux snot

[maxag]

I can't believe I was lucky enough to find a current thread on this issue. I have been doing general repair/fab work here and there for years. I have a Century 240AC 160DC "buzzbox". I have always used 6013 rods for mild steel. I'm building a loader for my tractor and want pretty welds on it. I had an old friend by last night who hangs stone on tall buildings all day. This requires welding the 1/4" angle clips embeded in the granite to the structural steel of the building frame. He goes through 50# of rods every 2 or 3 days. So I asked him to run a few of the beads that really show. His were not really any flatter than mine. After chastising me for not having a "heat setting" whatever that is, he said my problem was the 6013's and I needed to get some 7014's if I wanted a nice flat bead. So I got some Hobart 7014AC's today.

I can't stike an arc with them to save my life.

I got a piece of clean (wire brushed to shiny) 3/8 scrap and was just going to tune the amperage before getting to work. I started at the 130 AC that I use for 6013 1/8" rod for 1/8"-3/8" stock. Nothing but sticks. I managed a short bead at 160 amps but the arc was pathetic. I could have looked at it without a filter. The resulting bead sat on top of the stock amidst a jungle of spatter. Anything past 180 with a 6013 1/8" is cutting not welding but I tried up to ~200 and still got nothing but sticks. I tried everything down to 90 back up to 200 with the same results. I tried DC straight and reversed at 90 to 160 with the same results. I tried electrode angles from nearly parallel to 90 degrees. No joy. I thought maybe my ground was bad so I tried an 1/8" 6013 with the same set-up, the machine still set to 180 and ended up with the spattery undercut bead with a hole or 2 you'd expect with an overamp weld on my 3/8 stock. Turned it down to 130 and got the same convex bead I always get with 6011/13.

What am I doing wrong? It's a matter of pride at this point. I've read of the advantages of 7014 with lower penetration at higher heat for better puddle and I want that. How do I do it? I've read this thread and have tried the suggestions to no avail. I must be missing something. I called my friend and he said I must have got a bad batch of rods. He knows I can actually weld, but I hesitate to blame the tool. The box was a bit dusty could the rods be damp? It was the standard Hobart 5# plastic two-piece case and the tape at the joint was intact, but.... What are the symptoms of damp rods?

I've had 4 sticks in the oven set at 200 for 2 hours. I'll leave them for another 2 or 3 and try in the morning but I'm not hopeful.

Help me out here guys.

[Rocky D]

Welcome to the forum max, this is a wealth of information for all things welding...glad to have you aboard. There is no such thing as a dumb question, so ask anything, or add to the discussion with your own experience...we also have some fun, too. :D
This sounds like a case of gremlins! You get arc with 6013, but not with 7014? Am I over-simplifying it? Did you try to strike directly on the ground clamp?...that usually eliminates the machine. Do you have good connections on the ground clamp and in the stinger handle?..and on the machine itself? Weird.

[Tux_Rules]

I'm slightly confused. Last year when my friend was teaching me to weld on a "real" welder, a Lincoln dial arc 300 AC, we would run the Lincoln 7018 all day at around 125 amps with no problem. Last fall I bought my Hobart 235AC/160DC machine (which I am going to assume is comparable to the Lincoln 225 in AC mode) and could still run the Lincoln 7018 on AC with no trouble. Why would there be a difference? What is it that I might be missing/overlooking here?

[smyrna5]

Max - It sounds you have checked all the usual things mentioned already (bad ground, clean steel, works with 6013s, machine set right etc.) the only thing else I can think of is a bad batch of rods.

I bought a batch of 7014s from HF a few months ago and I am not a good stick welder yet. Even those cheesy (I assume they are cheesy given where they came from) HF 7014s practically weld themselves - even easier than the 6013s on the same machine. They don't have a lot of penetration, and put out a lot of slag, but lay down a bead that looks almost like a wire feeder did it. You can drag them right on the work surface if you like, so you don't even have to worry much about striking and maintaining the arc length. Only problem is they put down a lot of metal, so you have to move along quickly.

I can't help you much on the settings for the Hobart 1/8 rods, since I have never run them. Mine were 1/16" 7014s and I was running them at about 60 Amps, DC+, which was hotter than the box called for. I have a bit of trouble reading exactly where my old Thunderbolt is set, so it could have been plus or minus 10 amps. Maybe it was just easy to light because I was running it so hot. They ran beautifully on 16ga tubing. They were very easy to light at that setting. Several people in other parts of the country on my bike building forum have also tried them with the same results as I got.

The fact that you can weld a 6013 on that same machine definitely makes me lean towards bad rods. I'd try a new box. I assume you successfully tried 6013s again after the 7014s didn't work? If you just want to see if its the rods, you can get a 2 pound box of 1/8 7014s for under $3 (on sale right now) at HF.

By the way, I don't believe I would recommend a 7014 for anything that is structurally critical or subject to lots bending and vibration, but it sure makes a purty bead for non-critical situations, even for an inexperienced welder. If I ever weld a bike frame with 7014s, and it falls apart and kills me at 30 mph, I will send you guys a posthumous note from the other side lol.

[Rocky D]

Try grinding the end of the rod, before you strike it, and see if that works.

[maxag]

Thanks for the warm welcome and advice.

Rocky D, I believe it might be gremlins. And you have distilled the problem perfectly. 6011/6013's work fine, 7014's are a no-go. I still have some of the rods that came in a sampler pack with my welder 15 years ago. They've deteriorated to the point that the numbers on the rods aren't legible. I've used a few in a pinch and haven't had anywhere near the problems I'm having with these quality rods. I think I used all the mild steel rods right away so I think whats left is stainless, cast iron, and carbon steel. A month or two ago I welded a patch into my compressor tank with one of these mystery rods and had no real issues on the rusty 18 ga tank.


smyrna5, I used a couple of pounds of 1/8 "QuickStrike" HF rods building a batting cage frame for our ball association and was surprised how well they worked. Most of the welds were vertical but the bead didn't sag and the slag chipped off nicely. It's about an hour drive to the nearest HF so I got these Hobarts at TSC. You're much braver than I am. I've tried to stick weld light gauge round tube and ended up with a hideous mess of holes and boogers around the notch that no amount of grinding could make presentable. I bought a Clarke 140 MIG just for that.

OK, here's the latest. I left 4 rods in the oven @200 overnight. Surely that would drive out any moisture. I started from scratch. I used a terminal brush to clean the input sockets on the welder and brushed the lead plugs to shiny brass. I used a triangular file to shine up the v-notches on the holder. I tinned the crimp connectors on the leads to the ground clamp and stinger. I sanded the brass nubs on the ground clamp to bright brass. I got a fresh rust-free piece 0f 10 ga plate and 60 grit gound it to bright metal. I connected the ground clamp on the fresh surface about 3 inches from where I was going to make the pass. I turned the machine to ~140 AC. Guess what. Same **** thing. Stick stick stick stick. I turned it to 160 and managed to get an arc going for about 5 seconds. Instead of sizzling bacon I got sickly popping corn. With the rod hot there's no hope of even getting popcorn again. If were watching this I'd tell the weldor to turn his current up. But @ crazy amperage I can't even spray splatter or burn holes. Put in a 6011, turned it down to 130 and by comparison, wondered why I don't like the the raised bead from the 6013's.

Do you think I'm justified in concluding that, however unlikely, Hobart put out a bad batch? From all accounts, 7014 are an easy rod to run. I didn't have this much trouble when I first picked up a stinger at age 14 in high school shop. In your opinions, can I honestly walk into Tractor Supply and say "These are bad"?

[smyrna5]

Max. I know the Hobart engineers monitor this forum and I would think Hobart would want to know if the rods came from a bad batch (so they don't make any more like them). Maybe one of the reps will chime in.

[Rocky D]

Thanks for the warm welcome and advice.

Rocky D, I believe it might be gremlins. ...

Do you think I'm justified in concluding that, however unlikely, Hobart put out a bad batch? From all accounts, 7014 are an easy rod to run. I didn't have this much trouble when I first picked up a stinger at age 14 in high school shop. In your opinions, can I honestly walk into Tractor Supply and say "These are bad"?
I don't know as I'd be so quick to do that just yet. What would settle the query is to try those rods on another machine, by another weldor. Stop by a weld shop and ask them to run them for you, after you explain the problem, or go to a LWS that has a machine setup. Or send some to me, and I'll check them out.

[maxag]

Last week we found out that Anne is sleeping with Tyler even though his wife has terminal halitosis and may not be back for next week's episode and Dr. Windsor is secretly in love with his receptionist/Sister-in-Law and that Max can't spark his old 7014 rod but is afraid to tell his wife. (Cheesy organ music plays.)

OK, here's news. I'm with Rocky D on questioning the quality of Hobart electrodes. Off brand Chinese rods, yeah but I'm sure Hobart has a comprehensive quality control in place. So I decided to see if there was a date code on the package. Didn't find a date but did find that the tube was labeled in huge bright characters "7018AC" Somehow a 5# box of 7018's was on the shelf below the hanging 1# packs of 7014's. Now this doesn't explain why I couldn't get an arc out of the 7018 which is also a mild steel stick but when I got the 7014's home, I'm suddenly laying the prettiest beads of my life. The descriptions of the two aren't much different except that 7018 is a low hydrogen formula. Even in this thread we've been interchanging 7018 and 7014? So what's the deal? The fact that I joined this thread about 7018's without noticing my friend told me to get 7014 and I unconsciously bought 7018 when I knew it was 7014 I wanted is strange.

But man these 14's strike themselves! Once I got a bead going I could skip 4 inches between beads on the lap joint without restriking. You just move the tip to ~1/16 and the arc starts. Overlaps are easy to blend. The only hitch was getting used to how fast they fill. Strangely, they fill faster but somehow each electrode lays more length of bead than the 6013's do. I had to crank the amps to 140 to get what looks from the outside like good penetration but the area around was clear of spatter and the slag comes of 2 or 3 chunks with light tapping.

Anyway, I don't see a need for a low hydrogen rod arising any time soon so I'm going to buy a 10# tube of 7014's and never use anything else on mild steel unless I just can't get the paint or rust off.

What kind of angle and arc length do y'all use with these? 90 deg. lays a flatter bead but it's concave toward the center. With 10-15 deg it humps up more than I like. There's practically no spatter at long arc length but I haven't cut a bead to check for porosity. I was keeping the tip just out of the puddle. But the bead seemed smoother when 1/16 of arc was exposed. I've only burned 3 1/8 rods and can tell already that 3/32 of this high fill rod is what I need for this project where everything over 5/16 stock has already been welded.

Anyway, I'd still like to solve the 7018 mystery but now it's out of curiosity not need. I guess I'm with the thread starter with not being able strike an arc with 7018.

[smyrna5]

Now that sounds more like the 7014s I brought home! Glad you finally figured it out.

I think the arc stabilizers in the 7014 and very different than the 7018s. You have to maintain a fairly tight arc gap with a 7018, whereas as you have discovered the 7014 practically welds itself. The 7014 is also not a low hydrogen rod. Both the 7018 and 7014 are filler rods,, and both have 70,000 psi tensile strength, but you can't anymore say they are essentially the same than you can say a 6011 is essentially a 6013.

[maxag]

Hey smyrna, nice talking to you again. I'm glad to have gotten the whole 7014/18 thing straight too. I feel like a kid. I'm looking for **** to weld now. If the cat doesn't clear off the bench and stay off, I might see how 7014's work on feline fur.

I can accept that perhaps the 7018 was beyond my skill level in producing a consistent bead. But, there's a big difference between a pretty consistent bead and no arc at all. I'm sure over the years I've spent 100's of hours with an electrode making pretty blue reflections on the walls. I am conscious of arc length. I tried a length from 1/64 to 1/2 and could sustain an arc not at all. The 2 times I did get one going it looked more like a burning match through the #10 filter than a miniature sun.

About 10 years ago, despite all the warnings, I bought a pound of 308 rods to weld stainless pipe fittings to a 20 ga beer keg to make a brew kettle. It was frustrating and the result was, to me, an ugly mess of glob starts and spray finishes. So, when I realized that the thermometer was above the liquid line and the drain was in the flame I took the next keg up the road to a neighbor who had retired as a millwright at Ford after 42 years and had welded everything to everything. I took along the old one to get the placement right on the new one. Of course he broke out the TIG and produced a work of art in about 8 minutes but he told me my welds were about as good as you'll get stick welding stainless and I should be proud of them. I know I'm tooting my own horn here but I'm trying to indicate that I can, on occasion, produce a passable weld with the now outdated stick method. My experience with those 7018's was unlike any I've had. I had better results with a HF 90 amp toy welder fixing a busted exhaust manifold on the neighbor's Case tractor with a mystery rod that might or might not have been for cast iron than I did just trying to run a flat bead in the middle of a clean A36 plate with those 7018's.

[moya034]

I too have an Lincoln AC-225-S I bought about a month ago. The local welding shop gave me some 7018's to play with for free. I became very discouraged cuz I had a hard time striking the arc. I had never arc welded at all prior to getting this machine.

I went out and got some 6011's from Home Depot and haven't had a problem striking an arc since.

Just for kicks tho, I think I'll retry those 7018's after throwing them in the oven, and try a higher current setting with the machine. I had tired some 1/8" rods with about 120 amps, which is less then what was suggested earlier in the thread.

[smyrna5]

moya - As discussed earlier in this thread, some of the 7018s are difficult to use on some of the home type arc welders. They make some called 7018AC just for them.

[moya034]

I have some 7018's and 7018AC's, they both did the same thing for me, not work.

[canoetrpr]

Interesting thread...

I've got a lot less experience that those here having trouble with the 7018s. Maybe 5 or 6 hrs total - running 6011s, 6013s, 7014s and 7018ACs. I have not tried straight 7018 LoHy.

I haven't had a problem either striking of maintaining an arc with any of these rods. Well... I still do a fair share of sticking but I'm welding more than I am sticking... so I figure its working not too badly.

I'm eager to try the straight 7018s as I find the 7018ACs about at easy as the 7014s to run.

[Geezer]

I inherited an AC only welder from my father. I tried a few rod manufactures, but the brand that worked best for me were the Murex 7018, hot and relatively fast. Take a 1/8 rod, divide 1 by 8 and you have a ballpark starting amp.....like the pros have said 125. Adjust from there based on joint, position and other relavent factors. Above all, have fun