Tankless water heater Install

[SavageSunJeep]

t the first full gas bill that reflects my Tankless hot water heater install I just did.
Gas used in therms
This month: 22, $46.41
Last month: 59, $106.70
This month last year: 52,

You do the math:

Writeup/pics: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/offtopic/

Topic: Tankless hot water heater install

[Gaze]

Thanks for following up. Didn't see your results post until today.

Are you happy with those numbers? Looks pretty good to me. How long you figure 'til the whole switchover project pays for itself?

@$50/mo it shouldn't be too long?

Also, have you noticed any downside?


[edit: just saw details in your linked writeup]

[Gaze]

hmmm...

checked my nat gas bills for last 6 months...average 19 therms with standard tank. Guess I'm not a good candidate for significant cost savings. Would really like the benefit of instant hot water, though.

[malibu101]

I quickly glanced at your link. I was mainly interested in what brand you installed. Where I work we have been using Rinnai tankless units.
They have worked flawlessly. NO repairs at all--yet. The oldest unit is only about 2 years old.
The Noritz units advertising looks good but I've never actually touched one.
I'm sure you'll be happy.

[SavageSunJeep]

hmmm...

checked my nat gas bills for last 6 months...average 19 therms with standard tank. Guess I'm not a good candidate for significant cost savings. Would really like the benefit of instant hot water, though.

Its not instant, still takes just as long to get hot water to the shower head, but you do have an endless supply.


I quickly glanced at your link. I was mainly interested in what brand you installed. Where I work we have been using Rinnai tankless units.
They have worked flawlessly. NO repairs at all--yet. The oldest unit is only about 2 years old.
The Noritz units advertising looks good but I've never actually touched one.
I'm sure you'll be happy.

Since my tank had not bit the dust I had the luxury of doing research. I knew that at 13 years on the original tank that was in the house when it was built it was living on borrowed time...especially since I am the ONLY one on the block that has not had their tank replaced.

I will not go into the depth of my research, but as an engineer I can assure you it was solid.

Why Noritz? Largest and longest tankless manufacturer in the world. That said big and long does NOT always mean good. The quality of the unit is really world class. Nickel stainless steel valves, every internal wire labeled, stainless steel venting using hi-temp silicone O rings and a snap together with a locking thumb lock to snap-unsnap, solid copper heat exchanger, commercial grade (25% thicker) and 82 % efficiency heat exchanger the highest in the industry.

The quality of the unit is simply jaw dropping, its that good. The Rinnai, Bosch units are NOT to be slighted, but the edge went to Noritz.

[snoeproe]

I just had a Rinnai commercial tankless unit installed in my house this past winter. It is making my domestic hot water of course but it's also heating my house using my existing hot water system from my laid up wood fired outdoor boiler. My unit is fired on lp gas as i do not have natural gas in my area.
It performed flawlessly this winter. Gas consumption during the real cold months (Jan and Feb) was high but i like the fact that i don't have to be home to fill the wood boiler on a daily basis.
Were considering a small inside wood stove or even a pellet stove in the basement to help reduce our lp gas usage for next winter.

[drizler]

I just had a Rinnai commercial tankless unit installed in my house this past winter. It is making my domestic hot water of course but it's also heating my house using my existing hot water system from my laid up wood fired outdoor boiler. My unit is fired on lp gas as i do not have natural gas in my area.
It performed flawlessly this winter. Gas consumption during the real cold months (Jan and Feb) was high but i like the fact that i don't have to be home to fill the wood boiler on a daily basis.
Were considering a small inside wood stove or even a pellet stove in the basement to help reduce our lp gas usage for next winter.

Whatever you do think really hard before putting a pellet stove in the basement. That goes in direct conflict with prevailing methods unless you live down there. Think of it like a wood fired monitor. It pumps and ciruclates heat like a glorified space heater which is what it is. Try to centrally locate it in the house if possible which it usually isn't in modern houses.
Better in most cases to locate on an outside wall as it's a lot cheaper and easier to install. A multifuel stove can save you a lot of money if you live where they sell corn as both pellets and corn have swung greatly the past few years. With multifuel you can take your pick which is nice. Check out iburncorn.com and the hearth network forums for the complete skinny.

[SidecarFlip]

Now your talking my stuff...

I've been heating my farmhome for over 14 years now on biofuel. Started with a pellet only unit but 4 years ago went to multifuel, mostly field corn. I heat the shop with propane simply because of liability reasons but my total fuel bill for our 4 bedroom, 110 year old home was just under a grand and that's keeping the house at a wife comfortable 70 plus, 24/7 Corn is the best renewable fuel source there is.

[wmgeorge]

Thanks for following up. Didn't see your results post until today.

Are you happy with those numbers? Looks pretty good to me. How long you figure 'til the whole switchover project pays for itself?

@$50/mo it shouldn't be too long?

Also, have you noticed any downside?


[edit: just saw details in your linked writeup]

My bill for heating water is $20 per month with a high efficiency water heater like a 80% natural gas model. Folks I can't see the savings with these tankless models, unless you use a LOT of water. I was in the HVAC/R business for years so I know about high efficiency units. In a high mineral content area like we are here, the thing will be limed up and in the dump before you get your payback.

[wingsfan]

In a high mineral content area like we are here, the thing will be limed up and in the dump before you get your payback.

Thanks for answering the question before I even asked it!:D

[snoeproe]

If your water is as bad as you make it sound, your tank water heater must not last very long neither? It's efficiency must also be down the tubes as well?
This is when a water softener is a must. It will keep your tankless unit in better condition along with everything else in the house in contact with water..

[wmgeorge]

A tankless water heater is like a steam boiler. They operate at a very high surface temperature, that is why good water flow is so important. On a steam boiler we use all kinds of water treatments, a water softener would not be one. Water softeners will cause more problems than they fix, at least for a steam or hot water boiler. Lots of other alternative water treatments.

For a domestic water heater, a water softener is about all you can use. I will repeat, if you use lots and lots of hot water and your bill for heating same is $50 - 100 per month, get a tankless. But in a high mineral area be prepared to remove the lime with chemicals or acid (yearly?) or replace it altogether in a few years.

You can back flush or drain off the lime accumulation at the bottom of a standard water heater, and on steam and hot water boilers.

[donald branscom]

I just had a Rinnai commercial tankless unit installed in my house this past winter. It is making my domestic hot water of course but it's also heating my house using my existing hot water system from my laid up wood fired outdoor boiler. My unit is fired on lp gas as i do not have natural gas in my area.
It performed flawlessly this winter. Gas consumption during the real cold months (Jan and Feb) was high but i like the fact that i don't have to be home to fill the wood boiler on a daily basis.
Were considering a small inside wood stove or even a pellet stove in the basement to help reduce our lp gas usage for next winter.

Unfortunately LP gas is most efficient at 70º F. when you do not need it, except for hot water of coarse.

[SidecarFlip]

Unfortunately LP gas is most efficient at 70º F. when you do not need it, except for hot water of coarse.

Interesting post, please explain???

[donald branscom]

This is a fact that I learned while making ceramics with propane fired kilns.
Shocking isn't it?

Now I am wondering how efficient natural gas is at different temperatures.

I got my information from the Dedell Gas Burner company.
They make propane burners,kilns and ovens.

[dumb as a stump]

[QUOTE=SavageSunJeep;320020
Since my tank had not bit the dust I had the luxury of doing research. I knew that at 13 years on the original tank that was in the house when it was built it was living on borrowed time...especially since I am the ONLY one on the block that has not had their tank replaced.
.[/QUOTE]

I just repaced my electric heater( no gas in the country) 23 years old when It started to leak and the electrode was as good as gone too.

[canoecruiser]

A tankless water heater is like a steam boiler. They operate at a very high surface temperature, that is why good water flow is so important. On a steam boiler we use all kinds of water treatments, a water softener would not be one. Water softeners will cause more problems than they fix, at least for a steam or hot water boiler. Lots of other alternative water treatments.

For a domestic water heater, a water softener is about all you can use. I will repeat, if you use lots and lots of hot water and your bill for heating same is $50 - 100 per month, get a tankless. But in a high mineral area be prepared to remove the lime with chemicals or acid (yearly?) or replace it altogether in a few years.

You can back flush or drain off the lime accumulation at the bottom of a standard water heater, and on steam and hot water boilers.

I live in a limestone valley and the wellwater is almost like diluted concrete. The tank-style water heaters fill with sediment and it's very hard to get all of it out. The electric heaters are cheap to buy (if not run) and after 24 years I'm only on heater #2. Wmgeorge, I was considering a tankless for the energy cost and am glad I read your post. Idea shelved......