versatility: stick vs. mig (noob, so flame away)

[jerrym]

I've been lurking on these forums for about two weeks now and have tried to read as much as I can and will continue to do so. However, I would like some input on a question that I'm sure has been covered many times: which welding setup has more versatility, a stick or mig w/flux wire? I'm leaning toward the mig setup...

My welding would be primarily automotive (i.e. exhaust, fixing broken brackets, etc.) but I'm sure I could find many uses for a welder fairly quickly. Again, the mig seems to be the winner here but I've read that stick can be used for an extensive array of welding applications. I'm sure a tig would be best but I don't have the need/budget for such a setup... not yet.

jerry

[Zrexxer]

Not a flame, but I think you're confusing versatility with what's most useful for YOU.

My particular opinion is that stick is probably the most versatile process of the two, but it sounds like in your case, you don't need versatility, you need a welder for a specific purpose. Since you're saying you want to do mostly exhaust and automotive work, that's kind of pointing toward MIG as being a more useful process for your application.

[jerrym]

yeah, you're probably correct... I suppose what I am really asking is this: is it ok to use stick for automotive apps since it appears to have a breadth of applications just in case I need it for something else... But I think you're right, that's probably something I need to figure out for myself... Thanks for the input none-the-less

What is the minimal mig welder that you would recommend?

p.s. definately didn't take that as a flame... if I would have asked this question on an automotive forum I would have been scolded and laughed at.

[weldgault]

If you really want a all around machine, a 250 CV, or inverter CC/CV machine. this will give you availibility to do almost anything with GMAW process, solid, flux core ( self shielding or gas shielded). John;)

[Rocky D]

...
What is the minimal mig welder that you would recommend?

p.s. definately didn't take that as a flame... if I would have asked this question on an automotive forum I would have been scolded and laughed at.
The HH125EZ is a good tool to have for the lighter stuff, 1/8" and under...HH140 minimal for heavier stuff to 1/4" ...for 1/2" or better go with a 200 class machine.....skill level plays a part here also, as to the minimal machine.

On this forum there is no such thing as a dumb or stupid, question, we have all had 'em and have gotten answers we can pass along. You won't get laffed at, unless you want to be. :D

[Dan]

The minimum wire unit I'd consider would be a HH 187. Of course either my MM 210 or ESAB Migmaster 250 would be even better selections for their more powerful top end. Realistically though, I suspect a HH 187 or HH 210 would cover any of your MIG/self shielded fluxcore requirements

[Sparkeee24]

Howdy Howdy!

Realistically, the best setup for you is PROBABLY a 170-190 class machine. I sense cost is a big factor, since you mention stick and fluxcore right off. A better choice is one with 240 volt input, and not just for fluxcore. The HH 187 is ideal for ya. It has proven to be a real winner for users here, and is very flexible for noobs without being difficult. Look into an 80CuFt tank with C-25 for it, and skip the fluxcore, unless your welding outside when it's breezy.

Fluxcore, is a "hotter" process, in that it will not readily/easily weld sheet metal like body work or patch panels. It IS ideal for welding when it's windy. but the wire itself is very expensive.

E70-S6 with C-25 will cost less, and work on everything from 22 guage with tiny wire, to a REAL WORLD 5/16" or more single pass. This is the most versatile for YOUR applications. probably go with a .030 size.

Stick is more versatile for farmers, and repair shops sometimes, because you can have hard facing rod, cast iron repair rod, and run just about any type of steel rod with it. You can cut through grease and paint and rust without prep (sometimes) on farm equipment and stuff. However, ease of use, is not really there for a noob. I DO recomend trying to find a USED stick machine on craigslist or somewhere. BUT not for your first machine. And make sure when you do, that it has DC. AC machine is cheeper to make, but welding with one sucks.

your gonna want 2 grinders also. one with a wire wheel, and one with a grinding disc. A metal cutting chopsaw, some clamps, and a sawsall. Also, a good hood is a must. For cheep hoods, I like the 50$ (when on sale) harbor fright blue one.

good luck! Brian Lee Sparkeee29

[Grappletractor]

Howdy Howdy!

Realistically, the best setup for you is PROBABLY a 170-190 class machine. I sense cost is a big factor, since you mention stick and fluxcore right off. A better choice is one with 240 volt input, and not just for fluxcore. The HH 187 is ideal for ya. It has proven to be a real winner for users here, and is very flexible for noobs without being difficult. Look into an 80CuFt tank with C-25 for it, and skip the fluxcore, unless your welding outside when it's breezy.

Fluxcore, is a "hotter" process, in that it will not readily/easily weld sheet metal like body work or patch panels. It IS ideal for welding when it's windy. but the wire itself is very expensive.

E70-S6 with C-25 will cost less, and work on everything from 22 guage with tiny wire, to a REAL WORLD 5/16" or more single pass. This is the most versatile for YOUR applications. probably go with a .030 size.

Stick is more versatile for farmers, and repair shops sometimes, because you can have hard facing rod, cast iron repair rod, and run just about any type of steel rod with it. You can cut through grease and paint and rust without prep (sometimes) on farm equipment and stuff. However, ease of use, is not really there for a noob. I DO recomend trying to find a USED stick machine on craigslist or somewhere. BUT not for your first machine. And make sure when you do, that it has DC. AC machine is cheeper to make, but welding with one sucks.

your gonna want 2 grinders also. one with a wire wheel, and one with a grinding disc. A metal cutting chopsaw, some clamps, and a sawsall. Also, a good hood is a must. For cheep hoods, I like the 50$ (when on sale) harbor fright blue one.

good luck! Brian Lee Sparkeee29


HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY...... HEY................ Brian>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>why not return my messages?????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????

[Zrexxer]

HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY...... HEY................ Brian>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>why not return my messages?????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????
Give it up already, you sound like a lovestruck little girl.

[Broccoli1]

HOWDY HOWDY HOWDY...... HEY................ Brian>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>why not return my messages?????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????

Uh maybe- just maybe

HE DOESN'T WANT TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jerrym]

first of all to everyone: thank you for your replies I much appreciate the input.

Rocky, thank you... and I'm pretty sure you're Yoda in disguise

Sparkeee, thank you for a thoughtful response... I appreciate the tips on the additional stuff I'll need, its funny because those tools are pretty much already make up my x-mas wish list

love these forums

jerry

[Rocky D]

To help, I am here. Questions, stupid are not. Oops! my identity secret is. :D

[Sully2]

To help, I am here. Questions, stupid are not. Oops! my identity secret is. :D

Last of the "Jedi Welders"??......:D

[Broccoli1]

love these forums

jerry

It's a love hate relationship-

I love it
My wallet hates it:D

[Wheat]

close your eyes and spend the money for the HH140. Probably handle 95% of the jobs you have. Plenty of power. Take care of it. Use it for years and resell for 1/2 to 2/3 of what you paid for it. I had my HH120 for at least a decade. Nice machines....

[jerrym]

It's a love hate relationship-

I love it
My wallet hates it:D

isn't it the truth... the more I learn the more money I want to spend

[jerrym]

close your eyes and spend the money for the HH140. Probably handle 95% of the jobs you have. Plenty of power. Take care of it. Use it for years and resell for 1/2 to 2/3 of what you paid for it. I had my HH120 for at least a decade. Nice machines....

yeah, I'll probably have to take your advice... buy quality and buy for your needs or your wallet will hurt all the more

[Dan]

yeah, I'll probably have to take your advice... buy quality and buy for your needs or your wallet will hurt all the more

If you plan on running solid wire and shielding gas, I'd spend the extra on a HH 187 over the HH 140. With solid wire, the HH 140 is going to struggle on material as thin as an 1/8". The weld quality that a 187 can produce on 1/8" and thicker with a solid wire, is far superior to what the the HH 140 is able to produce.

[Critter]

I bought the HH140, and am tickled pink with it! But, I have an AC stick, and I really like that but wish it was an HH ACDC unit! Maybe when I grow up I'll get one.

[Sberry]

I am with Dan here, a 187 is the ticket. They had your picture on the wall when they invented it.

[Sully2]

..With solid wire, the HH 140 is going to struggle on material as thin as an 1/8".

??? Is that right???:eek:...Geeze! Thats a bummer??

[Sparkeee24]

Howdy Howdy!

The one thing you'll always want with a small machine, is more capibility. If you get the 130-150 class machine with 120 volt input, you'll wish you'd got the 170-190 class 240 volt input. It's not just about amps output, but it's about duty cycle and being anoyed cause you have to wait for your machine to cool all the time. It's also about safety. Since this is on a vehicle, and not garden art, there is a huge liability and safety factor to consider.

A smaller class welder, say a 140 class, has a tendency to produce nice looking welds, that have alot of "cold lap". This is when the wire melts neatly in a puddle on top of the original material to be joined, but doesn't truly penetrate much more then to holding it together like super glue would. It can look good, but the heat input just isn't there to melt the parent material.

there is also more voltage present in the larger class machines. This is not something this is readily apparent on the box in the store, but when in the field or at home, it makes a big difference. I like to call this "oomph". :) At the same amperage, it has more oomph. at the same time, you are not limiting your self on the thin stuff.

Basically, take an extra few weeks, and save the $$$ to spend on a better unit. One in the 170-190 class. TRUST ME. Welders rarely re-sell for less then 90% what you paid. You won't be out anything. My biggest mistake for years with my first machine was that it was too small. I had to pre-heat almost everything with a hand held propane torch before every bead.

I got so fed up with it, I got a used V-350 PRO advanced process. Basically a computer controlls the welding variables to what I set them at. Very confusing to figure out, but super sweet with adjustability. 2,000$ used, and another 200$ for a crappy used wire feed unit to go with and I can weld up to 425 amps, with an 80 pound power supply. I commonly use it for 1/8" stick rods, for 6010, 7018, and that nasty nickel rod used for cast iron. I also use it alot with fluxcore .045 for outdoor projects that nead alot of metal layed down fast. The fluxcore and me don't get along well in over head. It's WAY cool with alluminum in a push pull wire feeding cabinet! The most I've taken my machine too is 210 amps so far. But I am in LOVE with it! My GF loves it too. It's a menage' a trois.

Good luck! Brian Lee Sparkeee29

[Sberry]

The available input current is twice that of a 120V machine, 120V circuits are just inherently poor power sources, very limited. If one considers the investment and value this is a place in life to bite the bullet, wire in a dedicated circuit, spend a couple hundred more on a machine and its worth every penny, no one ever comes on here and has regrets they got too good a machine. Cant recall one.

[jerrym]

sparkeee: again thanks for another great reply... we noobs need as much info as we can read

Sulley: where abouts are you located in cincy... I'm in the greater cincy area too

[Grappletractor]

Howdy Howdy!

The one thing you'll always want with a small machine, is more capibility. If you get the 130-150 class machine with 120 volt input, you'll wish you'd got the 170-190 class 240 volt input. It's not just about amps output, but it's about duty cycle and being anoyed cause you have to wait for your machine to cool all the time. It's also about safety. Since this is on a vehicle, and not garden art, there is a huge liability and safety factor to consider.

A smaller class welder, say a 140 class, has a tendency to produce nice looking welds, that have alot of "cold lap". This is when the wire melts neatly in a puddle on top of the original material to be joined, but doesn't truly penetrate much more then to holding it together like super glue would. It can look good, but the heat input just isn't there to melt the parent material.

there is also more voltage present in the larger class machines. This is not something this is readily apparent on the box in the store, but when in the field or at home, it makes a big difference. I like to call this "oomph". :) At the same amperage, it has more oomph. at the same time, you are not limiting your self on the thin stuff.

Basically, take an extra few weeks, and save the $$$ to spend on a better unit. One in the 170-190 class. TRUST ME. Welders rarely re-sell for less then 90% what you paid. You won't be out anything. My biggest mistake for years with my first machine was that it was too small. I had to pre-heat almost everything with a hand held propane torch before every bead.

I got so fed up with it, I got a used V-350 PRO advanced process. Basically a computer controlls the welding variables to what I set them at. Very confusing to figure out, but super sweet with adjustability. 2,000$ used, and another 200$ for a crappy used wire feed unit to go with and I can weld up to 425 amps, with an 80 pound power supply. I commonly use it for 1/8" stick rods, for 6010, 7018, and that nasty nickel rod used for cast iron. I also use it alot with fluxcore .045 for outdoor projects that nead alot of metal layed down fast. The fluxcore and me don't get along well in over head. It's WAY cool with alluminum in a push pull wire feeding cabinet! The most I've taken my machine too is 210 amps so far. But I am in LOVE with it! My GF loves it too. It's a menage' a trois.

Good luck! Brian Lee Sparkeee29

Brian, Maybe I shoud l let these guys know why I am trying to get you to return my messages? Just communicate with me !

[Some Creep]

Give it up already, you sound like a lovestruck little girl.



.......ahhhh..... love............

Cupid's dirty trick.........


....or as the owl in 'Bambi' put it: "Gettin twitter-pated"


LMAO :D

[TechNova]

Howdy Howdy!

The one thing you'll always want with a small machine, is more capibility. If you get the 130-150 class machine with 120 volt input, you'll wish you'd got the 170-190 class 240 volt input. It's not just about amps output, but it's about duty cycle and being anoyed cause you have to wait for your machine to cool all the time. It's also about safety. Since this is on a vehicle, and not garden art, there is a huge liability and safety factor to consider.

A smaller class welder, say a 140 class, has a tendency to produce nice looking welds, that have alot of "cold lap". This is when the wire melts neatly in a puddle on top of the original material to be joined, but doesn't truly penetrate much more then to holding it together like super glue would. It can look good, but the heat input just isn't there to melt the parent material.

there is also more voltage present in the larger class machines. This is not something this is readily apparent on the box in the store, but when in the field or at home, it makes a big difference. I like to call this "oomph". :) At the same amperage, it has more oomph. at the same time, you are not limiting your self on the thin stuff.

Basically, take an extra few weeks, and save the $$$ to spend on a better unit. One in the 170-190 class. TRUST ME. Welders rarely re-sell for less then 90% what you paid. You won't be out anything. My biggest mistake for years with my first machine was that it was too small. I had to pre-heat almost everything with a hand held propane torch before every bead.

I got so fed up with it, I got a used V-350 PRO advanced process. Basically a computer controlls the welding variables to what I set them at. Very confusing to figure out, but super sweet with adjustability. 2,000$ used, and another 200$ for a crappy used wire feed unit to go with and I can weld up to 425 amps, with an 80 pound power supply. I commonly use it for 1/8" stick rods, for 6010, 7018, and that nasty nickel rod used for cast iron. I also use it alot with fluxcore .045 for outdoor projects that nead alot of metal layed down fast. The fluxcore and me don't get along well in over head. It's WAY cool with alluminum in a push pull wire feeding cabinet! The most I've taken my machine too is 210 amps so far. But I am in LOVE with it! My GF loves it too. It's a menage' a trois.

Good luck! Brian Lee Sparkeee29

It's true you'll often want bigger, but if you are going to be welding automotive sheet metal the 115 volt machine is the choice. There more than enough capacity for auto body sheet metal. We test are welds to industry standards for collision repair (I-CAR standards tested by MGA research)) and they pass when are MM 135's are in the 3&30 - 4&40 range for volts and wirespeed.
You can have trouble turning the larger machines down far enough to weld with .023 wire and not get too hot. It can be done but it can be difficult.
It depends on what you are going to doing most of. If you are doing mostly bodies the 115 volt is best and preheat the few times you do larger, if it's mostly larger than live with the difficulty with .023 in a 220 volt machine.
It's best to have both, leave the smaller dedicated to .023.

[Zrexxer]

Brian, Maybe I shoud l let these guys know why I am trying to get you to return my messages? Just communicate with me !Or maybe you should just shut the he11 up about it already.

[Dan]

My MM 210, HH 187 , and PM 180C , which are all 230V units, perform very well on thin ga. material like 22 ga. when set up with an .023 solid wire and C-25.

[TechNova]

My MM 210, HH 187 , and PM 180C , which are all 230V units, perform very well on thin ga. material like 22 ga. when set up with an .023 solid wire and C-25.

I've done it with 220 machines too, it's all we had in the early 80's.
I tried it as recently as last year on the MM200 and Lincoln 200 and had not been able to get the consistancy we needed. Maybe the click-click type voltage adjustment is the problem, I could never get the heat just right as
I could with the MM135's with finite adjustment . I seem to remember the vertical or overhead 90 degree welds taking a pretty low setting I couldn't get to with the 200. The larger gun made it more difficult to do plug welds also.
I guess the intent of my original post (bad spelling in it I now notice) was the fact to not eliminate the 110 units for automotive use.

[jerrym]

technova
good info, thanks for taking the time to respond with your personal experience

[Dan]

The low end on several modern (MM 200 was discontinued 15+ years ago) 230V units is engineered to perform very well on thin auto sheet metal. I've ran a HH 175, HH 180, HH 187, MM 180, PM 180C, Sp 175+, MM 210, and MM 251 on light ga sheet metal, and they all performed just as good as the 120V units that I've ran which would include a HH 135, HH 140, Sp 125+, and an SP 135+. Of course some of the above units perform slightly better on thin ga then others listed, but they all handled thin ga sheet just fine, producing a smooth stable arc.


I will admit, if I were looking strictly for a unit to weld thin auto sheet metal, I probably go with a HH 140, due to it being engineered towards being an excellent auto sheet metal unit. The point I 'm trying to make though, is that the HH 140 being a real good thin ga sheet metal unit, has nothing to do with it being a 120V unit, but instead, its due to the fact that this is the area in the output range that the engineer focused on making the unit perform very well, because honestly beyond thin ga auto sheet metal, I'm not that impressed with the solid wire arc quality of the HH 140.


Out of the compact unit that i've ran if I wanted the ability to run solid wire on thin sheet or 1/8" and maybe even thicker, I'd go with a HH 187. The 187 has a real good low end, and is very nice on 1/8".