flux core question

[tigster]

when using flux core, i understand that a drag technique is used because you need to push the flux back into the puddle. my question is, when using flux core, can "circular motions" or stack of dimes technique be used, or will slag inclusions become a problem? thank you.

[tractor hugger]

when using flux core, i understand that a drag technique is used because you need to push the flux back into the puddle. my question is, when using flux core, can "circular motions" or stack of dimes technique be used, or will slag inclusions become a problem? thank you.


Tigster, To be honest with you I do not agree with or use the circular pattern.

Now, your question, I've found pushing flux core(gassless I take it?) has no more effect on the weld as pulling it does. Some might not agree with me, but experience tells me I'm doing something right. Think of it this way, when you take a cert for uphill, you are pushing it up, right? By the "stack of dimes" meathod you are talking about, do you mean the slight weave to get that appearence?
I've been welding for over 20 years and have had no problem pushing flux core. In fact 2 of my certs are Innershield(gasless fluxcore), and outershield(fluxcore requireing gas) both are all position, and unlimited thickness. Hope this helps. Doug N

[tigster]

hey tractor hugger, i like tractors too. i have one, and it sure comes in handy.

the stack of dimes i am referring to is the same as the circular motions. maybe i am not using the right terminology, but i saw someone else use them interchangeably, so i "assumed" they meant the same. i started using the circular motions after Rocky D advocated the use of them. i really like using them, and was just wondering if they can be used as well with flux core (gasless). i am currently set up for solid with C25 gas. i would prefer to use solid wire with gas whenever possible, but i was thinking of getting set up for flux core sometime during the next 6 months or so. i think it would be handy to have that capability. there are somethings i can't haul into my garage, and on windy days outside, it would be good to have. so, i'm just thinking of what machine hardware mods i'll need, and also to practice with it, so i'll be ready when the occasion is. and since i'm REALLLLY liking these circular motions, i wanted to ask about that, too.

this is such a great forum. thanks for all the input.

[tractor hugger]

Tigster, Hey that's great. What kind of tractor do you have?

Anyway, before I get all wrapped up in tractor talk I better get back to your question. OK, this circular pattern should work good for you. I said I didn't agree or use it, that doesn't mean it's wrong. Most of the welding manufactures recomend it. You will have to practice with it though, cause it is much different with fluxcore, everything is slower. You'd probably be better off with a slight side to side weave. Practice and practice and you will find your niche.

As far as machine mods, You need nothing to switch over. Be prepared though for the difference in wire cost. Most people say you have to use serrated drive wheels. I have been using it both ways for years with no trouble. The main thing you will notice is that the wire speed will be considerably lower. Also it helps to remove the nozzle, cause you don't need it. Play with the wire speed and tip distance to the work piece. Now keep in mind that you will be traveling ALOT slower when using innershield. If you've never used it before it will seem slow and wierd, but it's also 33% stronger than solid wire even though the tensile strength rating is the same.

Your reason for wanting it is right. It definately is great for outside with a wind. It's pretty much the same as stick welding.

Let me know how you make out. Doug N

[SMS]

33% stronger?:confused: I have to ask where you got this from:confused: I also see no reason to remove the nozzle... if you can see with the nozzle on during the GMAW process then you can also see with it on during the FCAW process, plus you eliminate the chance of shorting out the diffuser and contact tip.
In my opinion i would stick with straight stringer beads or a slight side to side wiggle... less to go wrong, plus i hate the look of the "stacked dimes":p but thats just me.
Steve

[tigster]

tractor hugger, here are some pics of my tractor when it got delivered.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/72958-pics-my-new-tractor.html



so, regardless of opinions, does anyone know if circular motions can be used with flux core? thank you.

[smyrna5]

33% stronger?:confused: I have to ask where you got this from:confused: I also see no reason to remove the nozzle... if you can see with the nozzle on during the GMAW process then you can also see with it on during the FCAW process, plus you eliminate the chance of shorting out the diffuser and contact tip.
In my opinion i would stick with straight stringer beads or a slight side to side wiggle... less to go wrong, plus i hate the look of the "stacked dimes":p but thats just me.
Steve

I know when I removed my gas nozzle on my HH 140, it was a lot easier to see the wire. I didn't just remove the nozzle though, I bought some of those flux core nozzles, which protect the gas jets, but are a lot easier to see around, and which help keep you from grounding out the nozzle. I think I paid about 5-6 bucks each for them.

[IamVince]

I'm going to try that...hard to see around it for me

[tigster]

yes, i definitely plan on getting the flux core nozzle, mainly because i don't want to crap up the gas diffuser openings.

[tractor hugger]

33% stronger?:confused: I have to ask where you got this from:confused: I also see no reason to remove the nozzle... if you can see with the nozzle on during the GMAW process then you can also see with it on during the FCAW process, plus you eliminate the chance of shorting out the diffuser and contact tip.
In my opinion i would stick with straight stringer beads or a slight side to side wiggle... less to go wrong, plus i hate the look of the "stacked dimes":p but thats just me.
Steve


SMS, There are a couple of good reasons to remove the nozzle.:) One, Easier to see. True you can see with mig so you should be able to see with flux core. But it makes it even easier. Plus why ruin nozzles with bad splatter when you don't need it?

Two, How can you short out the tip and diffuser with no nozzle? Any welder knows not to touch the tip to the work surface. You have a better chance of shorting it out with the nozzle ON. Flux core splatters a heck of alot more than mig, so in no time the nozzle will be bridged to the tip with splatter.:( I don't know about you, but I don't like to stop welding anymore than I have to to clean tip and nozzle.:cool:

Now, this 33% stronger bit. About 20 years ago I heard this from either a welding engineer, or a welding instructor where I get my certs done. I can't remember which.:confused: But anyway, I had to believe him, cause I've had flux core hold where mig welds failed.:) Unless it's just me?

[tractor hugger]

tractor hugger, here are some pics of my tractor when it got delivered.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/72958-pics-my-new-tractor.html



so, regardless of opinions, does anyone know if circular motions can be used with flux core? thank you.


Tigster, Looks like you got quite a set up there. Nice combo too. You'll love that thing. We got a Kubota diesel in our bobcat, done nothing to it except for normal maintaince(SP). We bought it new in '87, and the most we've done is put a starter in it. Just turned 2420 HRS today.

Sorry I couldn't help you with the circular bit. I would say go ahead and try it, what do you have to loose on a practice piece? Doug N

[smyrna5]

I'm going to try that...hard to see around it for me

I got mine here, but they do have a $25 minimum order, so you either need to order a few other things or a handful of nozzles.

http://store.cyberweld.com/migaflcono.html

[tigster]

thanks, smyrna5.

tractor hugger, i could try it and plan to. the only problem is does the circular motions create slag inclusions? you weld, then come back around, and maybe the flux will get buried in the metal. you can chip off the flux afterward, but you can't tell from surface appearances if there are inclusions. you could bandsaw cut through the bead to have a look, but it won't happen all the time. if the inclusions are there, they will weaken the weld. with certain types of wire, it may be recommended, where with others it may be a definite no-no. and that's basically what i'm wondering, if anyone knows if this circular motion will create slag inclusions, or if it will work just fine. thanks for liking my tractor! later...

[Black Wolf]

Why has no-one even asked what type of weld you are doing??? Fillet weld? Butt weld? Edge weld? etc. In Position?, Horizontal?, Vertical? Overhead?

I do not agree with the other members that insist you have to "remove the nozzle to see" when using Flux Core wire, nor do I agree that it causes all this spatter. GMAW (hardwire) welding in Globular Transfer makes more of a mess than correctly adjusted FCAW (Flux Core) welding will. I also do not agree that welding with FCAW is "so much slower".... it was designed to have a higher deposition rate than GMAW, so if you know what you are doing you can really haul some tail with it - especially 2F welds (In position flat fillet)

Push Technique - Flatter wider bead, less penetration.

Drag Technique - Narrower, higher bead, more penetration.

Basic movements are stinger beads & weaves.

Every time you deviate from the basic movements you are increasing the risks of Slag Inclusion and Start/Stops....This includes all the unneccessary excessive 'whipping" when using GMAW (hardwire) to achieve a specific bead profile. I'll let you in on a little secret - If you know what you are doing, have your machine set correctly, and use a straight,steady push technique, you will achieve a nicer, tighter bead profile pattern than you ever could with whipping.

All these "circular this", and "whoop-de-doo that" just makes me laugh. It's all a buch of hogwash & is for the most part unneccessary.

Everyone who uses the term "Stack of Dimes" should be shot & p!ssed on because you sound as mentally challenged as all the cerebral juggernauts who have watched The Fast & The Furious and insist on referring to Nitrous Oxide as "Noss".

I apologize for responding so harshly, but meet us halfway and at least pick up a darn book & read a little bit.

[TEK]

Thank you Mr Black(it aint a dog) Wolf!! At last, a touch of sanity:cool:

[Black Wolf]

Thank you Mr Black (it aint a dog) Wolf!!

LOL...You just HAD to go there didn't you....LOL

Later,

[TEK]

Ya, well, you know, if I aint buried in it up to my neck, I'm kicking piles of it around.:D

[tractor hugger]

Why has no-one even asked what type of weld you are doing??? Fillet weld? Butt weld? Edge weld? etc. In Position?, Horizontal?, Vertical? Overhead?

I do not agree with the other members that insist you have to "remove the nozzle to see"


I never INSISTED anything mr. cheerful. Forums ARE about opinions, recomendations, and different experiences right?

[TRG-42]

Hi Tigster, this is one of these topics where you will have 20 different opinions if you ask 20 different people

Here are some basic Innershield FACTS

Most people will drag Innershield . Its like stick electrode...it has a slag you drag it . The reason that NONE of the electrode manufacturers recommend pushing it is there is a slight possibility to trap slag . This is more common with certain electrodes such as the E71T-4s, E71T-7s and E71T-8s. You can get away with it much better on the over popular T-11s

All the manufacturers are very conservative and therefore recommend the safest method .

Most structural steel welders also know this and therefore play it on the safe side . Why because there is little reason not to drag it. If you knew X-Rays or Ultrasound is being shot on your weld wouldn't you minimize the possibility for defects ?

Pushing Innerhield

The number one advantage is you can see where you are going better

Second advantage is you can decrease your penetration by pushing Innershield . Having said that , good structural welders (example running open root into ceramic backing etc )will pull a long stickout to reduce the penetration.

This seldom desirable to decrease Innerhshield penetration . Reason for this is generally speaking Innerhsield wires have poor impact properties ( Charpy V-Notch ) . One reason is the lack of grain refinement. Remelting of subsequent passes improves this . Increased penetration improves this. Decreasing your penetration reduces your grain refinement

Obviously this only makes sense for multiple pass welds.


Conclusion, although some welders will push Innersheild , there is no valid reason to do this

BTW - you cannot compare a V-Up technique with a flat / horizontal . Example, for stick / gas shielded flux cores you are essentially pushing, but doesn't mean you should push it for a flat horizontal

Lastly, the one exception to this discussion are some specialty Innershields E71T-14s that are used in the automotive industry or for galvanized welding. These electrodes run well at ZERO drag angle


Almost forgot your original question . It is ok to use tight circular motions on the T-11s. If anything it helps flatten the bead. Doing this will not increase the tendancy to trap slag

[tigster]

thank you very much, TRG-42, for the information. have a nice day.

[Sully2]

I drag instead of push. I also wear those big heavy leather gloves many recommend you dont wear! I can see easier what Ive DONE by dragging...but of course where Im GOING is hidden to me somewhat.

I tried pushing...didnt seem to make much if any difference EXCEPT I drug my little finger of my left hand ( Im right handed) across a spot where Id just welded about 10 seconds before..BARE HANDED!! Hence the gloves and the drag now...:D )

I use the fluxcore nozzles now because I hate nasty looking tools and I dont have those bright shiny brass gas nozzles to deal with presently...and I DO use nozzle dip slightly on the fluxcore nozzles so they just wipe clean.

Some guys "spit" when ya talk usin fluxcore..but to me "chipping slag is chipping slag"..dont matter what process your using ( stick or wire fed)

I use a little wiggle with the electrode...but thats probably because Im shaky...:D... more than intentional "C" swirls.

[BBackSoon]

Note to Self:

No more Stack of Dimes.

Check!

[smyrna5]

Some guys "spit" when ya talk usin fluxcore..but to me "chipping slag is chipping slag"..dont matter what process your using ( stick or wire fed)



I must be doing something wrong, because I have yet to need to "chip" any slag off when I use fluxcore in my HH 140. A quick wirebrush removes any slag I get. I usually hit the little metal ***** that splatter with a fine flap wheel, but they will also knock off easily with a putty knife.

[smyrna5]

LOL - despite what the little robot thinks that edits out the swear words, ballz (with an S) is not a swear word when properly used.

[Sully2]

I must be doing something wrong, because I have yet to need to "chip" any slag off when I use fluxcore in my HH 140. A quick wirebrush removes any slag I get. I usually hit the little metal ***** that splatter with a fine flap wheel, but they will also knock off easily with a putty knife.

I refer to the ..?..."scum"??..whatever its called when using fluxcore as slag? Might be the wrong term and probably 99.9% of time a stiff wire brush gets it off.. Same as when I use a 7018 rod with my buddys stick welder. Of course with the wire fed machine its not NEARLY as ??"thick"??..but whatever its called..its still there.

Its always worse in the very beginning of a weld...when I dont have the machine "zero'd in" from the start.....I always have to have some amount of "screw-up" before I get the machine to "sizzle" for me.

[Broccoli1]

Now, this 33% stronger bit. About 20 years ago I heard this from either a welding engineer, or a welding instructor where I get my certs done. I can't remember which.:confused: But anyway, I had to believe him, cause I've had flux core hold where mig welds failed.:) Unless it's just me?

Were you watching a cartoon:D

Seriously though- I don't understand how it can be stronger

Is not each process application dependent but the tensile strength the same:confused:

[Sully2]

I must be doing something wrong, because I have yet to need to "chip" any slag off when I use fluxcore in my HH 140. A quick wirebrush removes any slag I get. I usually hit the little metal ***** that splatter with a fine flap wheel, but they will also knock off easily with a putty knife.

I may have found an answer to this?? I was looking around the driveway in front of my litle work build and found some SMALL pieces of "slag". THIN stuff...I cant measure it with a vernier because it crumbles like a cigarette ash...so I come inside ( too chilly outside today) and popped in my DVD on wire fed welding...watching the guy do fluxcore stuff.

As Im drinking a cup of coffee it gets to the parrt where is he "chipping away" slag..( very thin in the video) and he says.." Different fluxcore wires produces different amount of slag"! Bingo!!!

E71T-11 Hobart wire is all Ive used so far..?? MAYBE..??..thats the difference?? ( Pure guess here??)

[drizler]

Wanna swap it for a VINTAGE Antique Ferguson TO-20. Fully broken in and absolute state of the Art 1950. I will toss in $25 just cause I wouldn't wanna cheat ya.:eek::D

[Burnit]

Im not gettin in on the whole push/pull thing but just a note on the slag:
When I am at my buddies he has a little 110v lincoln with innershield, slag comes off with a wire brush, at work with the 1/16" and 3/32" outer shield, sometimes it just falls off and sometimes the chipping hammer and needle scaler come out. depends on the weld. The slag on those welds is thicker maybe like .020 or .030 But nothing is like chipping sub-arc welds that is a mofo