any innershield experts?

[jamesdart]

ive been pushing wire at work on an elevator tower, i dont have a ton of experience with innershield and am looking for some tips. im using .068 nr 212 all positions, the verticle isnt proving to be an easy task. when i took my test i forget its been so long but i think i used 5/64 311. quite a bit different.

[davidplev]

if your going uphill, move side to side quickly, but not to quick thst you dont fuse both sides, i found that using 71m wire is the best flux cored. it comes out smooth and if you have your settings right, you wont get spatter. maybe you couls suggest that wire to your supervisor, it will make a load of differnce.

[tractor hugger]

James, you are right with the cert, I also used 5/64" in my test. Now I'm not familiar with the 212 or 311 in what they mean. Now let's see: You are using .068. you should be ok since 5/64" measures .078. You say you are going uphill. What kind of joint is it, butt, T, lap? What thickness are you welding? Mild steel? Are you single pass or multiple? This will make all the difference in the world for me to explain it to you. Also, what power source and wire feeder are you using?

Here's what I do when I'm using innershield. First thing I do is take off the nozzle and just let the tip exposed. Keep your distance about 1 inch away. Leave about an inch of wire out when you weld. Make a single stringer going up with no weave keeping your stinger angled at about 45-65 degrees pointing up. Second pass(if this applies) run antother single stringer with no weave, but stahl the puddle some to gain a wider bead. From the 3rd pass on you will have to start weaving because the heat is too much to keep the puddle going. In other words the puddle keeps wanting to fall out. Also make sure you hesitate on both sides of the parent metals.

Innershield is a combination of 7018 stivk welding and mig welding. The biggest thing people mess up in innershield is the wire speed. Wire speed for innershield is ALOT slower than mig welding.

Please supply more info on the problem and I'll go from there. Doug N

[tractor hugger]

if your going uphill, move side to side quickly, but not to quick thst you dont fuse both sides, i found that using 71m wire is the best flux cored. it comes out smooth and if you have your settings right, you wont get spatter. maybe you couls suggest that wire to your supervisor, it will make a load of differnce.

Dave, you are talking about outershield. That IS smooth.:D Outershield, if set right, will produce little to no splatter. Plus it is almost silent. Innershield no matter what you set it at will produce LOTS:eek: of splatter. Outershield requires AG25 mix, where as Innershield doesn't require any gas at all which makes it a good choice for high welding where stick is not practical. The higher the welding the more wind there is.
Doug N

[jamesdart]

the 212 and 311 are the wire type, like 6010 7018... ive had my certs since 99 but have very little experience. they wont let you run it on the jobs without certs because of the cost involved in air arcing and rewelding. so we need to have certs first, how can you cert without experience? ok i picked it up welded for a few hours took the test and passed. up until 2 years ago that was the extent of my experience. so ive been running it on and off now. the 311 is sort of like 7024, lays down a huge weld but is only good for flat and horrizontal. the 212 is all position up to 3/4". it welds much nicer than the 311. i just dont have anyone to turn to for advice as none of the other guys i work with do it. i did have a problem on flat at first getting pin holes in the welds which were otherwise very nice looking welds. i am a good stick and tig welder and never really had something test my nerves so much before. was driving me nuts. it seems i had to crank the wire speed up about 40 ipm. for the verticle the problem im having, its a very nice looking beed, comes out a little smoother than 7018 uphill, the inspector liked it, but it just seems to high piled for me, almost like its not wetting out on the edges and flattening out. i was only holding a slight angle about 15 deg or so. definitely penetrating but high piled. the machine is a 225 bobcat and a ln-25, id like to have a more powerfull machine but it works i guess. i crank it all the way up for anything but verticle. i had some full pen column welds to do which took about 6 passes. the rest is all sq tube to sq tube and i have to weld to the radius of the tube on some so its a big fill for verticle. material is anywhere from 3/8 to 3/4. im not big o nthe innershield because of all the smoke and spatter, its just not that cool to me, plus you can get stuck pushing it all day, and do nothing else, but i think if i get better at it, ill like it more, like anything else.

[tractor hugger]

James, I see your frustration. I occasionally get that horror job that drives me nuts. Well anyway let me try to make sense of it for you. You say the 311 is like 7024. The high crown you are talking about is normal. If the inspector passes it, you got it made. In a Jam I have run 7024 1/8" uphill. And yes, the crown is a bit higher than I'd like, but it is the nature of the beast. Most of the time you will get it piled too high for what you like, I know I do. But I've come to learn that you do need some crowning, it adds strength.

As far as your welder. You are fine with it. When I had my bobcat 225, I ran 5/64 thru my miller S32S feeder all day with no problems.

"just seems to high piled for me, almost like its not wetting out on the edges and flattening out." Running uphill like that is how it is. It seems like it's not grabbing the sides, but trust me it is.

It sounds to me like you are doing OK with the way you are doing it. Hey, If the inspector is happy roll with it:cool:

Doug N

[spuddown]

When I head vertical with 212 I turn the wire speed down a little and pause a little longer on the edges. Lincoln used to not recommend 212 for verticle. Most of the welding we do calls for a charpy impact test so 212 is out. NR 203 Ni 1% is an excellant verticle wire but is more expensive.

[jamesdart]

i only used the 311 for the test a few years back, i havent seen it since. one guy i worked with a while back was running the 212 down hand on the verts, i thought it was kind of wierd he said occasionally an inspector will argue it, but he said he hasnt ever had to go back for it.

[thinkharderchri]

I will tell you now that NR 212 is by far one of the easier wires to run so be thankful they are letting you use is versus say 203MP. Wire is in some cases easier to weld with and has better production speed than stick in the sense that you do not have to do all the stopping and starting to swap out rods.

All right their is several different variables that have to be done to achieved to get good clean NR212 vertical welds,

First and formost is machine setting. Make sure that you are welding with the LN-25 internal switch is flipped to CC since you are using a miller bobcat it cannot properly run if turned to CV.

Second Make sure you are welding DC-, if you are using DC+ you can still weld but the results are not very satisfactory.

Next is voltage and wire feed speed. I have a chart and I usually just go about middle of the line so you should set your wire feed speed at around 80 ipm and then since you are having to use cc and will have to make up for however many hundreds of feet of welding lead, set your bobcat at about 190 amps and have someone help you out for a minute. Now try to run a good practice bead while maintaining the proper 1" wire stick out. If it spits and sticks have the amps increased then try again. Do not make adjustments on your wire feed speed because you will know that it is set correctly, so the only variable is the amount of amps getting to the LN-25. Once you achieve a weld that you are happy with that is not to hot and not to much sticking you are ready to go.

Now as far as technique be sure to maintain the 1" stickout at all times this is a little tricky but is imperative to achieve good results. Also remember all you have to weld is the edges and the middle will take care of itself so pause on one side the jump fairly quickly over to the other side pause and repeat traveling up a little each time.

All that is left is practice. Good Luck I hope this is helpful.:D

[TRG-42]

There has been good advice already mentioned . Here is some additional pointers

First off, Innershield wires out of position are very different from other electrodes out of position

Most Common Mistakes with V-Up Innershield

Most Innershields prefer a perpendicular to 20deg drag. Example, NR232 likes the 20deg drag. This is VERY different from V-up with stick electrode , or gas shielded flux cored or MIG . Typically for these other electrodes you would point the arc UP into the puddle. Most Innershields you need to point down slightly or perpendicular as you progress up.

This is why the 82deg goosneck is very popular with Innershield guns ( makes it easier to get the perpendicular / drag on a vertical up

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/InnershieldVUp.png


As already mentioned, first couple of passes should be stringers. Straight up . Resist the tempation to weave ( it will be a bit humpy but you will take care of that subsequent passe ) , If you are only putting in a small weld then a SMALL short weave / circular motion will flatten weld out

As long as you have at least a 5/16 weld already, then you can progress to a full weave. Move steady from side to side ( do NOT whip across like other electrodes ) and pause in the corners. I always count "onethousand one or one thousand one one thousand 2 " in my head .

Failure to do so results in a bellied out weld

Common mistake is the progression of the V-Up

Resist the urge to step up on the edges, but rather move diagonally up to the other side. If you step up at the edges, its easy to get a scalloped / lumpy edges

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/InnershieldVUp2.png


Most Innershield slags are fairly "lazy so dont be makeing quick jerky movements, but rather slow and steady . Again, this is different from other electrodes. You need to watch the slag layer follow the puddle. This is one way to tell if your movement speed is correct. The slag should freeze just behind the puddle. If slag is freezing way behind the puddle, you are moving too fast

Electrical Stickout

Typically NR212 likes 3/4" . Unlike its close equivalent NR211 which will run a 3/4 to 1"

Procedure

Start of at the lower end . For example :
NR212 .068 18-19v 90IPM
NR212 5/64 18-18V 60IMM

Make sure you are in the CV mode of the LN-25 . The calibration for the WFS is completely off when in CC mode ( thats why there is a conversion graph inside the feeder ), so you will not have the WFS you think you have

Machine Setting

You really should run NR212 on CV . Your Bobcat will have a CV setting

Biggest problem you will have is your machine is too small for structural Innershield welding . You only have 200 amps in CV. The procedures I suggested above are 200amp procedures.

[jamesdart]

thanks for all the tips, looks like i was pushing too much heat and too much wire, i dropped the wire down to 100 and had my coworker adjust the heat, didnt even look what it was at. i also think the machine is too small to push wire but its what they gave me. the cv the first day i got it i set the bobcat up for cv and i dont know if something is wrong with it or what but it didnt have enough power so i have to run it cc. stuff was looking real good today, nicer than 7018. i do have quite the fill as i said its tube to tube. you can still keep the tips coming ill take all i can get. should i be bale to run overhead with the same settings?