Flame Adjustment

[TexHand]

OK, I know that after you light the acetylene, you are suppoed to adjust it until the smoke disappears and the flame moves away from the torch about 1/8", then bring the flame back to the torch and open the O2.

The problem is that I cannot get the flame to move away from the torch.

The acet tank is open about 1/2 turn, pressure is at 5, using a Harris #1 cutting tip.

I used other torchs before where I get the described flame movement, but I can't seem to get it on this one. So I just open the acet almost all the way, the adjust the O2 to a neutral flame.

Is it that big of a deal?

[Rocky D]

Moving the flame away from the tip,...new to me, but no biggy...don't worry about that... the black smoke disappearing tells you that you have a proper pressure to mix with the 02 for the size tip you have.

[TexHand]

Thanks Rocky.

[txfireguy2003]

Wow, that all new to me!!! I have never adjusted it until the black smoke disappeared before the O2 was added. I always just turned the ace on a little until I had a soft flame, and lots of black smoke, then added oxygen until it made a good looking flame. Anybody have a good set of instructions I can read to learn how to actually use my O/A set? I'm not very good with it anyway, and maybe this is why!

[TexHand]

Got this from the Harris website:

Lighting Torch for Acetylene and Mapp® Fuel Gas:

1. Purge system. Refer to Maintenance Instructions.

2. Open torch fuel “GAS” valve (Fig. 11) approximately
one half turn and ignite fuel gas.

3. Keep opening torch fuel “GAS” valve (Fig. 12) until
flame stops excessive smoking and leaves the end of
tip about 1/8”, then reduce slightly to bring flame back
to tip.

4. Open torch oxygen “OX” valve (Fig. 12) until a bright
inner cone appears on the flame.

Note: The point at which feathery edges of flame
disappear and a sharp inner cone is visible is
called the “Neutral Flame.” ® Airco, Inc.

[TEK]

I open both valves, light it with a crack, hit the lever and fine tune it and get to cuttin'. Takes about 3 seconds. I done it about 50,000 times tho----

[hankj]

Got this from the Harris website:

Lighting Torch for Acetylene and Mapp® Fuel Gas:

1. Purge system. Refer to Maintenance Instructions.

2. Open torch fuel “GAS” valve (Fig. 11) approximately
one half turn and ignite fuel gas.

3. Keep opening torch fuel “GAS” valve (Fig. 12) until
flame stops excessive smoking and leaves the end of
tip about 1/8”, then reduce slightly to bring flame back
to tip.

4. Open torch oxygen “OX” valve (Fig. 12) until a bright
inner cone appears on the flame.

Note: The point at which feathery edges of flame
disappear and a sharp inner cone is visible is
called the “Neutral Flame.” ® Airco, Inc.

Almost word-for-word in the Victor book, too.

A #1 Harris cutting tip will use 85 - CFH at 5 PSIG. How big is your acetylene tank, TexHand? Do you have checks and arrestors in your acetylene line? Regardless of the tank size, you should be able to get the flow needed to get the black out! What I noticed immediately on my small torch (Victor) was that when I added checks and arrestors (it came without them) there was a flow restriction. 5 PSIG on the acetylene guage didn't cut like it used to! I went up to 6, then 7 PSIG to get the same performance as I did before adding the safety equipment.

Fireguy,

Check the O/A manufacturer's web sites and look for educational material. If you've been seeing what you think is poor performance from your cutting torch, too low a fuel flow rate could be your problem! 90% of my O/A cutting is done with acetylene pressures of from 3 -5 PSIG. Once in a while, I'll need to pop a #4 tip on there and crank it up to 7 for rebuilding stuff like fireplace grates, but that's maybe one day a year!:p

Hank

[TexHand]

How big is your acetylene tank, TexHand?

75cf


Do you have checks and arrestors in your acetylene line?

Yes, checks at the torch and arrestors at the gauges.


Regardless of the tank size, you should be able to get the flow needed to get the black out!

I can get the black out, it's just that step off from the torch the manual says that I can't get, but today I was getting the black out then adjusting to a neutral flame and it cut ok.

The only reason I have the #! is 'cuz that what came with it. I need to get a 00 for most of the stuff I'll be cutting.


What I noticed immediately on my small torch (Victor) was that when I added checks and arrestors (it came without them) there was a flow restriction. 5 PSIG on the acetylene guage didn't cut like it used to! I went up to 6, then 7 PSIG to get the same performance as I did before adding the safety equipment.

I'll give that a shot tomorrow, thanks for the tip.

[Mr Meck]

Gauges, hoses, arresters, whatever. If you want the gas to stand off the tip then turn up the gas pressure till it does. Ya the book says 5 lbs but if that don't do it turn it up. You can turn it up to 10 if you want cause the flow is adjusted by the knob. We use #10 rose buds, after lighting , we turn the gas up to 14 psi with the fuel knob open all the way then go for the Ox.:D

[hankj]

... We use #10 rose buds....

Yeah, on manifolded C²H² systems, I'll bet!

That advice ain't good for the guy with a 45 cubic foot acetylene jug!

For you (us) small boys, rmember the 1/7 rule!

Hank

[TexHand]

OK, what's the 1/7 rule.... is that where I only listen to 1/7 of what SWMBO says? Cuz if that's it, I got that one down.:D

[Rocky D]

I open both valves, light it with a crack, hit the lever and fine tune it and get to cuttin'. Takes about 3 seconds. I done it about 50,000 times tho----

It doesn't hurt, I spose, as long as it doesn't flash back, but the reason to get rid of the black smoke, is to keep your tip clean, so it won't get a soot build up in it and start popping on ya.

[LarryL]

That "Black smoke" consists of fine particles of carbon black that form when acetylene burns with little oxygen. The yellow flame that produces carbon black is called a reducing flame. When I weld with an oxyacetylene torch, I open both acetylene and oxygen valves slightly and then light the flame. Then I'll adjust the mixtures until I get the neutral flame that I want. I hate having the fine, light carbon particles floating around in my shop for a long time and then settling on everything - including my eyeglasses and clothing. :mad:
Larry

[Rocky D]

That "Black smoke" consists of fine particles of carbon black that form when acetylene burns with little oxygen. The yellow flame that produces carbon black is called a reducing flame. When I weld with an oxyacetylene torch, I open both acetylene and oxygen valves slightly and then light the flame. Then I'll adjust the mixtures until I get the neutral flame that I want. I hate having the fine, light carbon particles floating around in my shop for a long time and then settling on everything - including my eyeglasses and clothing. :mad:
Larry
We called it 'afro snow' :D

[Mr Meck]

We use the Welding, cutting, and heating guide supplied with our torch set. It tells all you need to know. Lists all their tips, gas pressures and consumption rates. Real handy. Like for the # 10 MFA heating tip. Acetylene pressure to 12-15, consumes 40-100 cubic feet and hour. # 4 MFA heating tip uses 6-10 consuming 6 to 20 cubic feet an hour.
Victor may have this info on their web site. The book also states Oxygen should be open fully to seal the valve packing, and acetylene opened 1 1/2 turns max with 3/4 being preferred.
If you don't know how much gas you are attempting to consume, how can you effectively apply the 1/7 rule? If someone doesn't know about this rule then they should not be using acetylene until they do. Here is the rule: Thou shalt not withdraw from the acetylene tank more than 1/7 its contents in an hour. For example, If the tank has 270cu ft of gas then you can use 30 cu ft in an hour.
No we do not have manifold set ups, just big tanks and smaller ones as well. :D

[Critter]

OK, this was back in the stone age, but when I was going to school, if we lit the torch and got black smoke we had an F for the day! We were taught to use a little oxy when lighting to avoid the black smoke, oh, a loud pop would get the same grade.

[Mr Meck]

Your teacher didn't know much in my opinion. The following is a from the Victor torch manual for lighting up a cutting torch.

1. Inspect the cone end, coupling nut, and torch head for oil grease, or damaged. Inspect the cone end for missing or damaged O rings.

WARNING: If you find oil, grease or damage, DO NOT use the apparatus until it has been cleaned and/or repaired by a qualified repair technician. There must be two O rings in good condition on the cone end. The absence of either of these O rings allows premixing of oxygen and fuel gases. This can lead to flashback within the cutting attachment.

2. Inspect the cutting tip and cutting attachment head. All tapered seating surfaces must be in good condition. Discard damaged cutting tips. If you find dents, burrs, or burned seats, resurface the torch head. If you use the cutting attachment with poor seating surfaces, backfire or flashback may occur.

WARNING: These seating surfaces prevent premature mixing of gases that can cause fires and explosions. If the tapered seats on the tip are damaged, DO NOT use it.

3. Inspect the preheat and cutting oxygen holes on the tip. Splatter can stick on or in these holes. If the holes are clogged or obstructed, clean them out with the proper size tip cleaner.

4. Insert the tip in the cutting attachment head. Tighten the tip nut securely with a wrench(15 to 20 lbs torque).

5. Connect the cutting attachment to the torch handle and tighten the coupling nut, hand tight only. Wrench tightening may damage O rings creating a faulty seal.

6. Refer to tip flow data charts for correct cutting tip, regulator pressures, and travel speed.

7. Follow cylinder and regulator safety and operating procedures.

8. Open the oxygen valve on the torch handle completely.

9. Open the preheat oxygen control valve on the cutting attachment. Adjust the oxygen regulator to the desired delivery pressure.

10. Close the preheat oxygen control valve.

11. Open the fuel valve on the torch handle. Adjust the fuel regulator delivery range.

12. Close the fuel control valve on the torch handle.

13. Momentarily, depress the the cutting oxygen lever to purge the cutting oxygen passage.

WARNING: If the torch handle and hoses are already connected to the regulators, the system MUST still be purged after every shutdown. Open the oxygen valve 1/2 turn. Allow the gas to flow ten seconds for tips up to size 3 and five seconds for sizes 4 and larger for each 25 feet of hose in the system. Close the oxygen valve. Purge the fuel system in the same manner.

13. Open the fuel valve on the torch handle approximately 1/8 turn. Ignite the gas with a spark lighter. Be sure the spark lighter is away from the tip and not obstructing the gas flow.

NOTICE: Wear protective clothing. Use goggles to shield the eyes from the bright light.

14. Continue to increase the fuel supply at the torch handle until the flame stops smoking.

15. Slowly open the preheat oxygen control valve on the cutting attachment until the preheat flame establishes a sharp inner cone. The configuration of the short inner cone is called a neutral flame.

16. Depress the cutting oxygen lever. If the preheat flame changes slightly to a carburizing flame, continue to depress the cutting oxygen lever. Increase the preheat oxygen at the cutting attachment until the preheat flames are again neutral. If the preheat flames are not the same size and the cutting oxygen not straight, turn off the torch, Let it cool. Clean the tip.

And that is the recommended way to light off a Victor cutting torch.:D Your results may vary.

[Critter]

All that was is a statement, like I said from a Looong time ago. the old Jr High teacher probly don't care anymore that you think he wasn't too bright , he's many years dead. I bet he wasn't over paid for what he did teach us either.

[Aerometalworker]

All that was is a statement, like I said from a Looong time ago. the old Jr High teacher probly don't care anymore that you think he wasn't too bright , he's many years dead. I bet he wasn't over paid for what he did teach us either.



I thought I would let you know, your shop teacher wasnt the only one to teach that.

Back in the '30's and '40's that was standard practice. when the regulators are adjusted correctly for the tip size, you can open both torch valves about 1/2 to 3/4 turn and light. You will get an almost perfect neutral flame every time. This was done for a couple reasons.

1-no black soot in the shop ( important if its not just a welding shop )
2-doesnt build up soot in the welding tip that can lead to popping.

When you watch the old training films this is how many of the guys ( and gals ) light their torches. My old Smith manual from the 1930's describes the procedure and recomends it.

Ive used the method for years.

Remember the golden age of OA is in the past, more information has been lost then retained by many companies. Victor in particular I have found to have little clue anymore. Most of the experts are gone, with many myths left to float around.

-Aaron

[TexHand]

If you don't know how much gas you are attempting to consume, how can you effectively apply the 1/7 rule? If someone doesn't know about this rule then they should not be using acetylene until they do. Here is the rule: Thou shalt not withdraw from the acetylene tank more than 1/7 its contents in an hour. For example, If the tank has 270cu ft of gas then you can use 30 cu ft in an hour.

Oh THAT 1/7 rule, A year or so ago it was changed 1/10 for intermittent use and 1/15 for continous use, IIRC. That's where ya got me confused.

[TEK]

We called it 'afro snow' :D

'Paratroopers'

[k.a.m]

i will most likely get scolded for this but here goes, sometimes i think all these manuals everyone preaches really gets in my way, i dont know all about these techniques everyone preaches on, i light the gas extend the flame add oxy. when i press the lever if the blue flame at the torch head doesnt stretch go to work sure a little smoke but were talking seconds i dont study it just adjust and go to work.

[TexHand]

A #1 Harris cutting tip will use 85 - CFH at 5 PSIG.

Hank, where did you get that info? The chart I have shows the Harris 6290 - 1 using 13 CFH @ 5 PSIG. Theres a huge difference between 13 and 85 CFH :eek:

[hankj]

Oh THAT 1/7 rule, A year or so ago it was changed 1/10 for intermittent use and 1/15 for continous use, IIRC. That's where ya got me confused.

Who decided this? References?

As far as I know, the chemistry has not changed. Different formula for acetone, or what? I never heard of anything like this.

Hank

[Critter]

I thought I would let you know, your shop teacher wasnt the only one to teach that.

Back in the '30's and '40's that was standard practice. when the regulators are adjusted correctly for the tip size, you can open both torch valves about 1/2 to 3/4 turn and light. You will get an almost perfect neutral flame every time. This was done for a couple reasons.

1-no black soot in the shop ( important if its not just a welding shop )
2-doesnt build up soot in the welding tip that can lead to popping.

When you watch the old training films this is how many of the guys ( and gals ) light their torches. My old Smith manual from the 1930's describes the procedure and recomends it.

Ive used the method for years.

Remember the golden age of OA is in the past, more information has been lost then retained by many companies. Victor in particular I have found to have little clue anymore. Most of the experts are gone, with many myths left to float around.

-Aaron
Jees, ya got me checking my age! Thanks for the backup, but I can't call the golden age of OA gone, the other day when the LWS told me the Smith medium duty set was on sale for 200 bucks I woulda traded my wife for them! If only he wouldn't have told me the rehab was too much on her! When I get my windfall, hopefully shortly, a mig HH140 and a smith AO will come home with me, and I'll light it without black smoke. That's what's left great about this country, we can all have an opinion!

[TexHand]

Who decided this? References?

As far as I know, the chemistry has not changed. Different formula for acetone, or what? I never heard of anything like this.

Hank

The Compressed Gas Association -

CGA G1 5.3.3.13:

To minimize the withdrawal of liquid solvent, acetylene should be withdrawn from the cylinder at a rate not to exceed one-tenth (1/10) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour during intermittent use. For full withdrawal of the contents of the cylinder on a continuous basis, the flow rate should be no more than one-fifteenth (1/15) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour.

[Rocky D]

The Compressed Gas Association -

CGA G1 5.3.3.13:

To minimize the withdrawal of liquid solvent, acetylene should be withdrawn from the cylinder at a rate not to exceed one-tenth (1/10) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour during intermittent use. For full withdrawal of the contents of the cylinder on a continuous basis, the flow rate should be no more than one-fifteenth (1/15) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour.

OR, you can just go by the gauge and don't go past the red area, 15...duh. :D

[TexHand]

I thought it was a "both" thing - don't draw more than 1/10 and keep it below 15PSIG - not an "either or" thing.

I can put a Harris #5 on my torch and set the the PSIG to 12# flowing at 40SCFH. On my 75cf tank, with the 1/10 rule I bust that by 500% :eek:

Please correct me if I am misinterpeting these guidelines - a KaBoom in my garage would shatter all the bottles in my beer fridge.

[Mr Meck]

Sorry for the long post Critter, It's was just in response to the post as a whole. The correct way to light off a Victor cutting torch. They have one for turning on and off the bottles correctly and one for their brazing tips as well. Although the list is quite long, takes 5 to 10 sec tops. :D

[Critter]

No problem Mr Meck, I learned a loong time ago and am re learning now, I enjoy the trade although it isn't my trade, it's a hobby for me, something I enjoy! When i get my new torches i will read up at the time, as the times, they are a changin! ya know, that ol boy gave me a 4X4 piece of 1/4 inch iron, I welded it till it was maybe 4 inches thick. he taught me to practice, I'll pick it up again and try to stay up to date by reading this forum.

[hankj]

The Compressed Gas Association -

CGA G1 5.3.3.13:

To minimize the withdrawal of liquid solvent, acetylene should be withdrawn from the cylinder at a rate not to exceed one-tenth (1/10) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour during intermittent use. For full withdrawal of the contents of the cylinder on a continuous basis, the flow rate should be no more than one-fifteenth (1/15) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour.

Well, if that ain't a kick in the head!

Guess I better step yp to a 330 if I want to use a cutting tip bigger than a Victor #4! Wonder why the change in thinking?

The old "1/7" never failed me. I actually ran a #4 cutting tip "intermittently" on my old 40-ft³ acetylene cylinder witout mushap.

While I'm usually a proponent of following the rules for theese things, I guess I'm gonna hang in with my 125-ft³ cylinder for now. 99% of my work never needs more than a #0 tip, anyway. Plus, I'm a little sceptical of a consumption standard written by the purveyors of the product! I'd be much more inclined to respect those numbers if the AWS comes out with them.

Thanks for the elucidation!

Hank

[Mr Meck]

You are good Critter. TexHand, you are correct. No more than 15 psi as acetylene is unstable over that psi. The 1/10th rule is for intermittent withdrawal. The 1/15 th rule is for if you want to withdraw all the acetylene. The 1/7 th rule applies overall? This is confusing so I'll do more research into withdrawal rates for myself. Keep burning metal and keep you clothes cool.:D

[TexHand]

No problem Hank, that's what great about this place - all of us know more than any of us.

Thanks for the reassurance Mr. Meck. I didn't think it was an "either/or" thing, I thought you should abide by both guidelines.

[Rocky D]

I like that...."all of us know more than any of us" True.:)

[hankj]

.... that's what great about this place - all of us know more than any of us..

That should defintely be a sticky!

Good lag, Tex.:p

Hank

[Hotfoot]

The confusion on 1/7 vs. 1/10 might be attributable to the change in the permeability of tank filling materials used in acetylene tanks, which occurred about 30 years ago, as asbestos was being phased out of use. I could look this up, but I am confident in my all-knowing wisdom and superior intelligence, so that is not necessary.:rolleyes:

[TexHand]

I could look this up, but I am confident in my all-knowing wisdom and superior intelligence, so that is not necessary.:rolleyes:

Mr. Limbaugh, Rush - Sir, is that you??:D:D;)

[Rocky D]

I don't think that anyone has mentioned that you are not ever supposed to run an acetylene tank dry....it removed the acetone, which is a stabilizer in the tank. You watch for the acetone to burn in your flame, then change tanks. Preferably before that , tho.

[TexHand]

I. You watch for the acetone to burn in your flame, then change tanks.

How do you know?

[FormerTankSarge]

My guy at the local Gas supply said to quit using the tank when the high pressure was down to about 50#.:rolleyes:

[Mr Meck]

To date I have never had the acetone burn thing. What I have noticed is the tank pressure goes down. Understandable. Have you noticed that when you turn on your tanks and adjust pressure to say 5 lbs, then light your torch, the tank gage goes way down and so does your pressure. And what is the difference in flame when you are burning acetone? All I get when the tank empties is a flame going more and more oxidizing. High pressure down to 50 lbs? :eek: Crapola.:cool: N why don't you send the O2 back at 1klbs as well?

[Rocky D]

How do you know?
The flame will change color, and not get very hot,...then you turn the torch off and you can smell it.

[oldtimer]

Right about thr color change, loss of heat, and the smell.

When I first started welding for a living we had a small steel supply in town and he would cut whatever you needed. The way he told when his acetylene bottle was low was when his fire went out. I mean he used it until the torch quit burning.

[Mr Meck]

Never smelt anything different, but did read up from Union Carbide and Victor reference books on the subject to refresh myself. Revisited tip and accessory gas usage and all is ok here. We went to the larger tanks as our burn times can be excessive. From what I read it seems all the figures refer to complete withdrawal of the acetylene than a safety problem. More info from you all is appreciated.:cool:

[Eaglebait Ranch]

Rocky D: newby here...... tomorrow I start my first "cutting" job, so I am not worried about the color of my flame showing a different color when the acetone appears. Since I am a visual learner, what color will the flame change color to?

What am I cutting? Six pieces of 1/4 x3" stock as bracing for the bucket hooks I am going to mig weld onto my tractor.

All you contributors: Far out thread! I got a lot of cross information I have gotten I have been talking to cleared up in my brain from this thread. I knew there was something about not letting the ace. tank go empty. But, I heard from a couple of people that they didn't know anything about that. I knew my welding instructor had told me about that, but I couldn't remember how to know when to change it.

As said in one of the later threads, and it is SO perfect, "We all know more together than any one of us individually" or some'um like that.

If you have been looking at the "Mig" forum, I was the one asking about welding bucket hooks. Got that one figured out, too!

[Rocky D]

Rocky D: newby here...... tomorrow I start my first "cutting" job, so I am not worried about the color of my flame showing a different color when the acetone appears. Since I am a visual learner, what color will the flame change color to?

What am I cutting? Six pieces of 1/4 x3" stock as bracing for the bucket hooks I am going to mig weld onto my tractor.

All you contributors: Far out thread! I got a lot of cross information I have gotten I have been talking to cleared up in my brain from this thread. I knew there was something about not letting the ace. tank go empty. But, I heard from a couple of people that they didn't know anything about that. I knew my welding instructor had told me about that, but I couldn't remember how to know when to change it.

As said in one of the later threads, and it is SO perfect, "We all know more together than any one of us individually" or some'um like that.

If you have been looking at the "Mig" forum, I was the one asking about welding bucket hooks. Got that one figured out, too!
The flame will go from a normal blue to lighter blue with some yellow in it. You'll be able to smell the acetone, too.

Yup, there's thousands of years of experience, here!

[lotnat53]

I am just finishing up my first semester of o/a classes in college and as for the drawing of acetone off of a tank it will make the flame turn a purple color. This is not good at all, the acetylene bonds to the acetone allowing more acetylene to be held in the tank at a higher pressure while still being stable. When this ballance is distubed the acetylene becomes unstable and could ignite because while it is stored in the tank upwards of 700psi it is only stable alone up to 15psi.This can also happen if the tank is left on its side and not allowed to stand up for 5 hours before use.

As for the amount of gas you are able to draw off in an hour it must be determined by the weight of the tank. If weighed when first hooked up no more than 1/7 of the volume of the tank should be drawn in an hour. This is what Victor recomends and what we follow at school.

[snakesaver]

hi ihave used this for /a rigs because i am new to cutting (i have always had 202 or 204 chamfer/cutting rods for my arc welder if i had to cut anything). but www.contenti.com is a very simplified procedure for setup and ops.

also www.j&rwelding.com may help cheers! mike:cool:

[cope]

Wow, that all new to me!!! I have never adjusted it until the black smoke disappeared before the O2 was added. I always just turned the ace on a little until I had a soft flame, and lots of black smoke, then added oxygen until it made a good looking flame. Anybody have a good set of instructions I can read to learn how to actually use my O/A set? I'm not very good with it anyway, and maybe this is why!

The best book I have seen is "The Oxy-Acetylene Weldor's Handbook" by T.B. Jefferson. It's out of print, but available on the web from used book dealers. This iste has a decent A/O welding video.

http://www.tonywelding.com/

[Grumpy]

The Compressed Gas Association -

CGA G1 5.3.3.13:

To minimize the withdrawal of liquid solvent, acetylene should be withdrawn from the cylinder at a rate not to exceed one-tenth (1/10) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour during intermittent use. For full withdrawal of the contents of the cylinder on a continuous basis, the flow rate should be no more than one-fifteenth (1/15) of the capacity of the cylinder per hour.

Lawsuits, lawyers, money, power probably forced the CGA to modify their rules. Just my 2¢.

[cope]

How do you know?


There are 14.5 cubic feet/pound of Acetylene. Acetylene cylinders are stamped with a tare weight. You can weigh your cylinder, subtract the tare weight, and multiply the difference by 14.5.