Good welder/BAD welder...

[mrcaptainbob]

Okay, this is the same issue as Dacro's, except using the HH 135. Today I did about 36" worth and it sizzled like frying bacon! I was happy! Later in the project I couldn't get 1/4" to go right! What the heck? spitting and sputtering. Same metal. All freshly cleaned. Good ground. Same welder (me and machine.) and it goes to pot. Took everything apart at this point. It was either that or pitching it down hill to the creek. The drive wheel groove was a bit filled up with the flux and I cleaned that out. Checked the wire to it and the wire does not fit, which I feel is correct. I suspect the wire wants to ride on the groove edges rather than tucked into the groove. Stripped out the cable, too. Layed it on the floor and lays straight. Rolled it back and forth and it shows no kinks. Did the compressed air thing and no air wants to come out. Shoved solid wire through and some flux (naturally) came out. Kept rodding away at it and aired it out some more. The wire slides through quite nicely. Reassembled it all and checked every step to make sure there was no binding. All was well. Even lightly lubed the plastic spool stem to prevent sticking. The spool tension nut is just barely on. In fact, at one point I ran it without the tension spring. Holding it to the air the wire comes out nice and free. When sitcking it to the metal it starts the darn popping sputtering again. Two Excedrins later I'm typing to you before we hear the splashing sounds in the creek...
Any suggestions? Give up welding? Hire it out?

[Rocky D]

How are you getting flux on the wire?? The wire is supposed to be dry, going through the machine. Am I missing sumptin here? :confused:

[Dascro]

Not that it will change anything, but I know how you feel!

Earlier this evening I posted on the thread I started last evening about what I did to resolve my problem. I don't know if it will help you as I am using solid wire and it seems you are using flux wire.

I believe my biggest problem was the tip in my case. For some reason, even a new tip at the correct size of the wire created excessive resistance and consequently feed problems. Although I have always used solid wire with gas, perhaps changing to a one size larger size tip will resolve your problem too.

That popping and sputtering sound sure is annoying, huh.

Dave

[hankj]

Something is definitely screwy for there to be that much debris in a relatively new machine.

Poppong and spitting is usually either a dirty workpiece or a wire feed issue. It seems like you've done the obvious things, but it still worries me that you are getting gunk in the drive roll groove, and crap in the liner. For sure, it should not be flux from the wire core. You may just have a bad roll of wire. Check that aspect.

Hank

[mooseye]

If it is flux-core wire or inner shield, it might be that the wire has been mashed out of shape or the wire is split and is loosing the flux before it gets to the weldment. As some one already suggested check your spool of wire. It could have started out ok and then got down to some bad layers.
What does the bead look like. Or can you not even get it to run>? Pictures always help if you have that capability.
I assume you didn't change the drive roll pressure between welding sessions. Is that correct? If you put too much pressure on the flux wire, it will crush and or distort it causing splitting or feeding problems.

[mrcaptainbob]

Well, mushing the wire sounds like a good possibility at this point, Mooseye. Since it was sputtering again I went radical. I set the wire feed pressure gage at 4. (Was at 3.5.) It still spit and sputtered. So (go ahead and holler at me) I turned the roller around so the .020 groove was playing capture to the .035 wire. No difference with the sputtering. I even over drilled one of the tips to about .040. This is so exasperating! What could cause it to go stinky after doing a good weld for an inch? Then the wire shoves the gun tip away with rather firm force. It's contacting clean metal. I noticed this: triggered it off for a couple seconds. Did NOT move the tip. Was most careful about this as I was trying to establish something. Trigger on and at that point got the 'right sound' of welding for what may have been one second and it started popping. I tried that another ten or more times to verify. It's a different sound, look and feel at that start point than what happens at the pop/sizzle/pop point. Those lumps can darn near be knocked off with a sharp hammer blow.
Tomorrow I will take pictures and practice posting them here. I may even try some more experimenting, starting with setting it all back nicely to the correct groove setting (stop the yelling already!) and a more normal pressure. Will also ry to clean the cable interior. Is it okay to use parts cleaner followed by air blasting to clean any flux flakes from feed cable interior?
Thanks again for the help.
Sorry about misplling your name, Dascro.

[Rocky D]

This almost sounds like too much wire speed, or a loose ground wire either at the machine or at the clamp. Does thee ground clamp get hot? After you get it to weld, that is.
It is ok to use a liquid cleaner and air to clean the liner...I always used acetone for this, or MEK. Blow it in both directions. Don't use an oily cleaner like mineral spirits. We would get small bucket and immerse the liner for a few minutes, before blowing it out.

[mooseye]

Well, mushing the wire sounds like a good possibility at this point, Mooseye. Since it was sputtering again I went radical. I set the wire feed pressure gage at 4. (Was at 3.5.) It still spit and sputtered. So (go ahead and holler at me) I turned the roller around so the .020 groove was playing capture to the .035 wire. No difference with the sputtering. I even over drilled one of the tips to about .040. This is so exasperating! What could cause it to go stinky after doing a good weld for an inch? Then the wire shoves the gun tip away with rather firm force. It's contacting clean metal. I noticed this: triggered it off for a couple seconds. Did NOT move the tip. Was most careful about this as I was trying to establish something. Trigger on and at that point got the 'right sound' of welding for what may have been one second and it started popping. I tried that another ten or more times to verify. It's a different sound, look and feel at that start point than what happens at the pop/sizzle/pop point. Those lumps can darn near be knocked off with a sharp hammer blow.
Tomorrow I will take pictures and practice posting them here. I may even try some more experimenting, starting with setting it all back nicely to the correct groove setting (stop the yelling already!) and a more normal pressure. Will also ry to clean the cable interior. Is it okay to use parts cleaner followed by air blasting to clean any flux flakes from feed cable interior?
Thanks again for the help.
Sorry about misplling your name, Dascro.

RockyD mentioned too much wire speed. You can try turning the speed down while welding(or trying to) till you get a smooth feed. Also, overdrilling the tip may cause loss of contact which would make the wire electrically cold for intermittent periods which would push the gun away.
Set the machine as close as possible to your original setting and correct tip and try again while adjusting wire speed down or up to achieve smooth arc.

[Rocky D]

RockyD mentioned too much wire speed. You can try turning the speed down while welding(or trying to) till you get a smooth feed. Also, overdrilling the tip may cause loss of contact which would make the wire electrically cold for intermittent periods which would push the gun away.
Set the machine as close as possible to your original setting and correct tip and try again while adjusting wire speed down or up to achieve smooth arc.

Moose has a good suggestion...it's the way us old timers adjusted the machines before they put gauges on them...with your torch hand, position your torch with the correct stick out, and steady your hand on a block or something, then have the machine where you can turn the wire feed up and down, with the other hand...you can turn the knob, and get the right sweet spot quickly. I also agree about drilling out the contact tube....don't. I never use an oversized contact tube...it will cause more problems, than it solves.

[SundownIII]

MrCaptBob,

Not trying to be a smartazz, but sounds like you should go back to the owners manual and start from there.(copy avail on line if needed).

First off, sounds like you're trying to weld material which your welder was never intended to weld (you stated that when you went to 1/4"...).

Your drive roll should be set for the .030/.035 groove, not the .024 groove (don't think Hobart even has a roller for .020 wire). Wrong groove "will" cause problems. Too much drive roll pressure will deform flux core wire and cause feeding problems through the tip. "Drilling out" the tip to .040 is a BS solution to a bigger problem.

I do not/have not owned a HH135, but from looking at the "Owners Manual" it seems the max recommended material thickness is 3/16" with flux core wire and a 4/30 (V and WS) setting. I'm sure the "little guy" will do 1/4" with multiple passes (non critical welds) but maybe you're just asking a little much from your machine.

You've gotten some good advice as well as some bad advice on this board. I can see why it can be so confusing. That's why I recommend you go back to the owners manual and try to get things back to "normal".

[Clay Walters]

MrCaptBob,

Not trying to be a smartazz, but sounds like you should go back to the owners manual and start from there.(copy avail on line if needed).

First off, sounds like you're trying to weld material which your welder was never intended to weld (you stated that when you went to 1/4"...).

Your drive roll should be set for the .030/.035 groove, not the .024 groove (don't think Hobart even has a roller for .020 wire). Wrong groove "will" cause problems. Too much drive roll pressure will deform flux core wire and cause feeding problems through the tip. "Drilling out" the tip to .040 is a BS solution to a bigger problem.

I do not/have not owned a HH135, but from looking at the "Owners Manual" it seems the max recommended material thickness is 3/16" with flux core wire and a 4/30 (V and WS) setting. I'm sure the "little guy" will do 1/4" with multiple passes (non critical welds) but maybe you're just asking a little much from your machine.

You've gotten some good advice as well as some bad advice on this board. I can see why it can be so confusing. That's why I recommend you go back to the owners manual and try to get things back to "normal".

Drilling out an .035 tip to .040 won't do a thing...its already that size. And the Handler 135 I had would certainly run a good bead on 1/4". I just don't think its a good single pass nor enough oomph for unclean/unprepped metal.

I tend to think its either the wire or the drive roll tension is set too high and is deforming the wire or a grounding issue. You didn't change polarity at some point did you?

Good luck,

Clay

[mrcaptainbob]

Didn't have the chance to try the suggestions today. Will do it Monday. nless remarks are personal or outright condescending, I take all suggestions as honest endeavours of oofers of help. And I thank you all for them.
About over drilling that tip, how does the electricity get to the wire? Does it flow through the whole cable? Or is there a separate wire for the tip? I will return the drive roller back to the .030/.035 groove and set the pressure foot to 3.5 again. As for the wire feed speed, I had it at 40. The metal is 3/16" ( I misspoke...). Will also do a cable soak. I did not check the ground clamp to see if it was hot. What is so exasperating is getting outstanding effort from the machine one minute and lousy effort the next. No change in settings. No change in anything except different place to weld. That's when I started doing the crazy stuff. Then I just let the wire dance on the metal as shown in the one pic with all the snots. There's good weld (okay..for ME it's good!) and then the bad stuff.
As can be seen, there's a butt weld that came out pretty darned good. But then, welding at the cross point went south in a hjurry. What's strange is that the other side of that cross point...the weld came out very nice! Same metal, same T, same clean....yet, something's different.
Again, thanks for the help and
suggestions.

[mooseye]

Didn't have the chance to try the suggestions today. Will do it Monday. nless remarks are personal or outright condescending, I take all suggestions as honest endeavours of oofers of help. And I thank you all for them.
About over drilling that tip, how does the electricity get to the wire? Does it flow through the whole cable? Or is there a separate wire for the tip? I will return the drive roller back to the .030/.035 groove and set the pressure foot to 3.5 again. As for the wire feed speed, I had it at 40. The metal is 3/16" ( I misspoke...). Will also do a cable soak. I did not check the ground clamp to see if it was hot. What is so exasperating is getting outstanding effort from the machine one minute and lousy effort the next. No change in settings. No change in anything except different place to weld. That's when I started doing the crazy stuff. Then I just let the wire dance on the metal as shown in the one pic with all the snots. There's good weld (okay..for ME it's good!) and then the bad stuff.
As can be seen, there's a butt weld that came out pretty darned good. But then, welding at the cross point went south in a hjurry. What's strange is that the other side of that cross point...the weld came out very nice! Same metal, same T, same clean....yet, something's different.
Again, thanks for the help and
suggestions.

Looks like you need to do some prep work on your practice material. Mig does not like paint or rust. You must have an instant ground when the wire contacts the work or you will get the intermittent arc and the gun bouncing. That really is not too bad for a beginer on painted material.
Get it clean and try again.
The power is transmitted to the wire by the copper tip. You do not want the wire getting its current from the liner. It may arc inside the liner and ruin it or cause feeding problems.

[chevyman_de]

I don' think there's a problem with the feeding mechanism.
You don't have enough power at the tip. The butt weld needs less power than the outside of the t-joint, which in turn needs less power than the cross section weld. Here you only have enough power to melt the wire, but nor for creating a weld puddle on the heavy gauge base material. There's a good chance that you don't get enough volts to the welder under full load. Output voltage drops significantly and the beads look like bird droppings. Every single volt counts, especially when you're already stretching a small welders limitations.

Try another butt weld. If it comes out like the previous one, and you can't blame a too small extension cord for the other joints, you know that you have an excuse to get a 230V-welder.

[JalopyBldr]

I didn't have time to read every posting, so if I'm repeating advice, please excuse me.

Along with a clean surface (i.e. no rust, paint, preferably bright, shiney metal) at the weld site, make sure the surface your ground wire is clamped to, is equally clean, bright & shiney.

[Rocky D]

Could it also be that ( I see two pieces to be welded) you are lighting off on the piece that does not have the ground clamp on it? I have done it, before.
Bob, we all understand your frustration, and if it is any consolation, we have all gone through what you are experiencing...but patience will win out....hang in there!

[mrcaptainbob]

Those two pieces, Rocky D, were tack welded on the back side. And that part went quite nicely. It sizzled with a smooth sound to it. Was tempted to continue, but thought about how the parts would twist if not adequately tacked all around. I assumed it would effectively be considered one piece at that point and not make a difference which side was first touched. Wrong assumption? Thanks for the support.

[Rocky D]

Those two pieces, Rocky D, were tack welded on the back side. And that part went quite nicely. It sizzled with a smooth sound to it. Was tempted to continue, but thought about how the parts would twist if not adequately tacked all around. I assumed it would effectively be considered one piece at that point and not make a difference which side was first touched. Wrong assumption? Thanks for the support.

Yeah, youu're right, when tacked they are electrically one piece. if you are close enough to me I'd come over...where are you at?

[Sully2]

I didnt see it mentioned anywhere in any post...but what brand of wire are you using? The reason I ask is all the gunk you found inside the liner

[SMS]

Are you possibly running the machine on an extension cord?

[Broccoli1]

MrCaptBob,

Not trying to be a smartazz, but sounds like you should go back to the owners manual and start from there.(copy avail on line if needed).

First off, sounds like you're trying to weld material which your welder was never intended to weld (you stated that when you went to 1/4"...).

Your drive roll should be set for the .030/.035 groove, not the .024 groove (don't think Hobart even has a roller for .020 wire). Wrong groove "will" cause problems. Too much drive roll pressure will deform flux core wire and cause feeding problems through the tip. "Drilling out" the tip to .040 is a BS solution to a bigger problem.

I do not/have not owned a HH135, but from looking at the "Owners Manual" it seems the max recommended material thickness is 3/16" with flux core wire and a 4/30 (V and WS) setting. I'm sure the "little guy" will do 1/4" with multiple passes (non critical welds) but maybe you're just asking a little much from your machine.

You've gotten some good advice as well as some bad advice on this board. I can see why it can be so confusing. That's why I recommend you go back to the owners manual and try to get things back to "normal".

I don't think he was working on 1/4" stock-

He had welded 36" all good and then he could not even run a 1/4" bead:)

I agree completely with going back to factory settings and also that perhaps he hit the duty cycle with just blazing along at 36", even at a couple inches at a time- more so if you add an extension cord.

I notice a significant drop in performance in my machine when I am running it too hard.

I try not to prep all my material at one time so I can let the little guy rest while I prep the next piece/section. If everything is prepped I tend to hit the duty cycle because I just keep on weldin':)

[mrcaptainbob]

Today's effort: I dialed the speed way down to the not-recommended 10. It did a little better with creating a buzz. Oh, by the way, I reground everything so it'll be all fresh and new today within 5 minutes of welding. Including the clean spot for the ground clamp. Not much chance of corrosion. So, I spooled out a couple yards of whater ever 'bad' wire might've been in there, and settled down for some experiments. I did get a bit better sizzling, but nothing to brag about. Dialed it at the lowest setting and it did start to sizzle like I like to hear, but not enough 'volume'. Meaning (to me) that it's not hot enough. But, it is doing better. Tomorrow I'll pick up some new .035 tips and go there. May even get a new cable. (Read: desperate). I am running it on an extension cord. About 50 feet of 12 gauge. House wire. Can't see that as being significantly different than if the same wire were in the walls and it plugged into the barn outlet. Not to mention I used the same wire for all previous welds. Good and bad. I'm in Jackson, Michigan, Rocky D, but thanks for the kind offer. As for the duty cycle, it was the day after the 36" perfect stuff that the 1/4" (length not T) went bad. Also, that 36" was not consecutive. There was some time off for the machine to play catchup. Maybe not enough, but certainly nothing that should affect the next day's effort. The wire is from TSC. Don't know what brand it is but, I got the welder from there, too.
Although this part of the project is finished, there are two more phases to go through that will require my limited welding effort. May have to invest in superglue.

[SundownIII]

mrcaptainbob,

Remember that the wirespeed is also your amp control on a HH140. By dialing the machine down to a 10 wp you also reduced the available amps.

As I mentioned before, go back to the recommended (on machine cover) setting for the material you're trying to weld.

If possible, I would have someone check your voltage drop when the trigger is pulled. Sounds to me like you're just not getting enough AC power to the machine. Depending on the distance from your outlet to the power panel combined with the 50' of 12GA extension wire, you may be getting a significant voltage drop. The HH140 draws 20A at max setting.

[W8KI]

mrcaptainbob,

Jackson MI ???
I may know u ?
I have an associate that went by that "handle" and he lives just outside of Jackson near the Parma, Albion area.
Odds are if the wire is from our local TSC's,
it is the Hobart ("weld it") Brand.
email me... (see profile)
I live near Homer MI.

[W8KI]

with fluxcore/innershield, are you using the knurled (sp) driveroller or the standard driveroller. jus' curious.

[mrcaptainbob]

The feed roller is the V groove roller that came with the machine. And I do now understand (somewhat) about that wire speed also affecting the amps. Thanks to this forum for teaching me that. I had it at the recommended setting of 40, but it just didn't work. Well, it didn't work all the time. Sometimes it do, sometimes it don't. That's the kicker for me. The do and then the don't. When all is the same: metal, cleanliness, metal thickness, ground clamp area, extension cord....sometimes it do, sometimes it don't.

[old fart]

It sounds as if the welder has a bad contact inside. The symptoms are works ok sometime and not on the next trigger pull. Have the output checked by a repair shop.
O.F.

[Mikboo]

I had this make big difference on some 3/8 stuff I was welding one side was in sun light and one was not???

[Sully2]

mrcaptainbob: Cant ya just load that thing up and drag it off to the LWS and do a demo for them right there? If they have much experience at all they should be able to see what the problem might be..( mechanical or human error)

[Rocky D]

Great idea, Sully! ;)

[mrcaptainbob]

That is a good idea. Did some more dinkin' around with it today. Tacked a 3x3x3 box section to one of the rails. 3/16" T. The tacks were great! So I did 2" on one side and it went great! Then....pop/snap/pop! Huh? Okay...let it all cool down and thought about the admonitions about the extension cord... hauled out the generator. It's a 20A 5.5K Coleman. Well, it will NOT run this HH135! Huh? As a matter of info, I HAVE run this unit in the past. My dirt digger frame cracked the spine out in the field. Hauled the generator, angle grinder and the welder out there and did a great repair on it. This was about three years ago. The dirt digger's done a LOT since then and the weld is still holding. So now I'm starting to consider that maybe something inside is 'kaflooey' (sp?)

[Zrexxer]

So now I'm starting to consider that maybe something inside is 'kaflooey' Be careful bandying about highly technical terms like that! :p

[Rocky D]

Are you sayin now, Bob that it has run on the genset before and it won't now??? A genset will put out 120v, and your house current is substantially less than that...so if you are not being able to run with 120v input...may very well be kaflooey. But check it out at the LWS,first. That'll save me a plane ticket out there.

[Sully2]

YUP! Load her in the truck and head to the LWS. Something is going wacko inside the rig...

[mrcaptainbob]

Installed a new cable even though the old one looked okay kink-wise. Maybe the inside was gunky from past bad decisions. Also installed BRAND NEW (oooo!!) .035 tips. Also went to straight wire (no flux), reversed the polarity, turned on the gas ad commenced a-weldin'. It went ~okay~ for a bit, then went south again. Tried everything from higher settings to lower. Pitiful. And yes, it did run off that generator in the past. Just as it has off that same extension cord in the past. I used to get some great welds off it. Oh yeah, while using it today...it popped a 20A breaker. Three times. It's own breaker never popped. WIll try using it directly from a wall plug tomorrow and cee how that goes. I presume LWS is Local Weld Shop? Am starting to think more and more that something is definately arbingated in there.

[Rocky D]

LWS = local welding supply....a weld shop would be good, too, but they can only confirm your problem...LWS can fix it.

[mrcaptainbob]

Two known good welders stopped by today. We hooked the HH135 up in the barn. No generators, no extension cords. HAd some practice stuff set up in the vise, ready to go. The one guy clicks the finger control a few times...the 20 barn breaker popped! Removed the cover to look for any obvious signs of smoke or other 'stuff'...nothing obvious. Also, could not duplicate the problem. But, it would not weld regardless of what they tried. So, I guess it's to a repair shop. Rats. Not what I need right now. Will have to look around for something like that here.

[mrcaptainbob]

Found a welder repair shop today. Should find out Thursday what the problem(s) is (are). I'm sure it'll be past a .1K$.