First Post - Lots of Questions....

[71cutty455]

Hi guys, this is my first post and I've been browsing this board for several weeks now and it seems very informative. I am in the process of restoring a 1971 Cutlass Supreme and will be needing to purchase a welder very soon. By the way I have no welding experience whatsoever. I also just purchased an air compressor and I need to wire my garage for 220v which brings up a few questions in addition to my questions regarding what welder to get. I was leaning towards a HH140 since I anticipate welding only sheetmetal body panels and floor pans and it is priced very competitively. But since reading all of the posts regarding the HH187 I am starting to favor that welder since it is only $200 more and would be able to do a much broader range of welding chores if needed. I had an electrician come out and give me an estimate on running the 220v to my garage for my compressor. It requires a 30 amp breaker and he was going to run 10/2 from the box to the compressor and direct wire it which is recommended in the compressor manual. Can I just have a 30 amp 220v receptacle wired in my garage and use that for both the compressor and a HH187? Or does the welder require a bigger breaker? Excuse me if these are completely idiotic questions but I have no experience with electrical work other than changing a light fixture in a friend's kitchen. Also from reading the posts on the HH187 I see you most of you favor it over such welders as the Lincoln 175+ and the MM175/180 correct? Is it safe to assume that the HH187 would be a good welder to start with for someone that has never picked up a welding gun in his life? I have a ton more questions to ask but I figure this is a good starting point. I appreciate any and all comments. Thanks.

[84ZMike]

Here is the link for the 187.If it were me I would have two seperate ones for the welder and compresor as you would more than likely be using both at the same time.The spec. sheet on the 187 states it will draw 20.5 amps. at full load....so I'd say a 30 amp should do you good,but I'm no elect. expert either.I havn't used the 187 my self,but I think it will serve you well....the 140 will do you well also,but you are right the 187 will give you more options.
Good luck,
Mike
http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/handler187.html

[hankj]

71,

Hi, and welcome to Weld Talk.

The HH 140 would be ideal for what you say you want to do, but I would never discourage anyone from buying a heavier unit, since I have been bitten by that same bug.

As for the electrics, if you're going to bring the first ever service to your garage, I recommend a 6-slot panel. Run #6's, and feed it with a 50-amp breaker. Now, you have all you need for the moment, and room to grow, which you will :p need.

Hank

[ATCOent]

I agree with 84ZMike. I recommend two 30 amp circuits--one for each. I don't know how you plan to cut the the sheet metal, or any metal for that mater, but if you eventually get a plasma cutter you will need a 30 amp circuit for the air compressor, a second 30 amp circuit for your welder, and a third circuit for the plasma cutter. You will defiantly be running the plasma and air compressor at the same time. Plan ahead. Save money now.

All my welding machines, wirefeeders, etc., are Miller. Hobart makes good equipment too. Hobart and Miller are both owned by Illinois Tool Works Inc. (ITW). I have owned Lincoln machines but like Miller more. I suggest you buy the machine carried and repaired by your local welding supply house. That is where you will need to go if you have any trouble and need replacement parts. Parts wear out and need replacing. Regardless of the machine you buy there will be somebody here that can answer you questions.

Good luck and welcome aboard. And oh yea, listen to hankj--he knows his stuff.

[gnewby]

I have field tested the HH 187 and would highly recommend it, not to say that the HH 140 would not be capable of what you are planning to weld at the moment. Trouble is you will eventually find things that would be much better welded with a larger welder. The HH 187 is easy to dial in, and I believe you would have more success welding without burnthrough problems with it then on the HH 140 as there are more settings available giving you a wider range to choose from.

Once you get started buying and building projects it becomes addictive, my suggestion would be to buy the larger machine the first time rather than to buy a smaller one then later on bite the bullet for a larger one.

[ZRX61]

As for the electrics, if you're going to bring the first ever service to your garage, I recommend a 6-slot panel. Run #6's, and feed it with a 50-amp breaker. Now, you have all you need for the moment, and room to grow, which you will :p need.
Hank
I went with a 12 slot fed by a 60amp breaker & now it looks like this:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6384&highlight=ZRX61

[wldingfool]

I went with a 12 slot 100 amp service for my garage. Figured better to over kill than come up short! I also upgraded the house to 200 amps so I could dedicate 100 to the garage.

[Broccoli1]

I went with a 12 slot fed by a 60amp breaker & now it looks like this:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6384&highlight=ZRX61


The Smoke article was good!!:p



71 Cutty,

Return the compressor and don't even bother with a welder- it will just lead you down a road to ruin:D


Welcome to the Zoo

[Mike W]

When you have to move twice to get more space for the machines, you might start thinking that you have a problem. :rolleyes:

[Dan]

With an .023 solid wire and C-25, the HH 187 is a real nice sheet metal unit. Since the output is solid, the tapped design of the unit definitely makes it more user friendly (simpler) then a variable voltage unit to operate.

[71cutty455]

First off, thanks everyone that replied so far. Brocolli1 believe me I've thought of that (so has my wife) but unfortunately I think I'm too far down that road to look back now :D. Some of your responses have brought up a few questions. I most likely will go with the HH187. My house has 100 amp service and at this time upgrading that to 200 amp service is probably not gonna happen, unless one of you guys is an electrician and willing to do it for a couple of cases of your favorite beer (given after the job is done not during). So if I run a sub box to the garage (which is an attached garage that already has service, just 2 110v lines) I'm thinking the most the I could do is a 50 amp breaker from the main box to the sub box, can I run both the compressor and welder from that? I think a 60 amp circuit would be too much to take. But then again I haven't really done much electrical work. The only big draw from my main box is my A/C, I don't use the dryer outlet since I have a gas dryer, gas range also so no problem with that either. I'll need to double check the rest of the circuits but do you guys think I can do a 60 amp sub box? What wire should I run to the sub box? Is 10 gauge enough?

[kyoders]

What you need to do is look at what a "typical" load for the rest of the house will be, then figure out what the likely load will be when working. For example, if we assume your AC isn't running, you are going to have lights and some number of appliances that are typically being run in the house. Let's say you estimate that a "typical" load from the house is around 50 amps. Then that theoretically leaves as much as 50 amps available to your garage, although you don't really want to run things at 100%, let's say you target 80% for the main panel load. That's 50 amps from the house, leaving 30 for the garage, with 20 amps of "headroom" for transitory peaks, like refrigerator compressor motor startups, compressor pump motor startup, and other things you forgot to consider when doing the calculations. This will keep you from tripping the main breaker for your 100 amp service under normal conditions.

The numbers I've used above are invented and may not reflect real world useage by you or anybody else. The NEC sets out procedures for estimating these numbers. They allow for a great deal of variation from one situation to another, depending on the mix of devices in use. What I presented above is not a very good representation of those procedures. It's more of a quick and dirty guess to illustrate why you should do a load calculation.

With only a 100 amp service, you should really take a look at the load calculation from the house to see how much you can utilize from the garage without creating an overload on the main service.

[hankj]

71,

It's hard to advise you on the electrical system modification without more information. How full is the existing service box? How many spaces are left for breakers? Are the two 120V circuits now in your garage fed on different breakers, or is there just one brekar for the garage now?

If there are two breakers feeding the 2-120V garage circuits, and they are on opposite poles, or if there is space to re-arrange them, you can feed the "new" sub panel from those two brekers, re-home your 120V circuits to your sub, and add your 20 -amp compressor and a 30-amp circuit for your welder.

Tell us what you have and we can help a lot better.

Hank

[harcosparky]

I don't use the dryer outlet since I have a gas dryer, gas range also so no problem with that either.


Sounds like you have a Dryer Outlet which means ther should be a breaker ( probably a 30 Amp) in the main panel for the dryer. You mention having a gas range " also". was there an electric range in the house prior? If those two were in the house prior and you converted to gas dryer and range, there shouldn't be a problem with running a sub panel to the garage. Pull the breaker for the Dryer and if there is one for an electric range pull it as well. Put in a breaker big enough to handle the compressor, welder, and maybe an little extra.

When we first moved here evert 220 tool I had shared the dryer outlet. If yer old enough and remember a tv show called Green Acers then you know what the electrical system in this old farm house was like. :eek:


We are in the process of putting a 200 amp service in .... gonna do it ourselves. It will be nice having a subpanel for all the workshop items! :D

[71cutty455]

Here's a breakdown of my electrical box -

LEFT SIDE
1 \
- 1 and 3 is my 220v 40a dryer line
3 /

5 \
- 5 and 7 is a 220v 60a for ?????
7 /

9 - 110v 20a for half of kitchen

11 - 110v 15a for dishwasher

13 - 110v 15a washer/dryer

15 - 110v 15a other half of kitchen/garage

17 - 110v 20a GFCI in 1st bathroom

19 - empty


RIGHT SIDE
2 \
- empty
4 /

6 \
- 6 and 8 is 220v 30a central A/C unit
8 /

10 - 110v 15a furnace

12 - 110v 15a living room/3rd bedroom

14 - 110v 15a 1st and 2nd bedroom

16 - 110v 20a single kitchen outlet

18 - 110v 20a GFCI in 2nd bathroom

20 - 110v 15a single basement outlet


I'm not sure what the 60a breaker in slots 5-7 is for, can you guys clue me in on that? From what it looks like (this is the first time traced the box - it was never labeled) my house wiring is all screwy. Does this give a better picture of what I'm up against?

[71cutty455]

any help guys?

[ZRX61]

Electric oven/stove? Electric furnace?:confused:

[71cutty455]

gas stove. gas furnace too, the blower for the furnace is on 15 amp breaker # 10. Also you guys have a rough estimate on what upgrading to 200 amp service would cost?

[hankj]

71,

Sorry to be so late on this, but it's been a bit busy. If the right side 2-4 positions are vacant, that's all you need to fire up a sub.

As for the 60-amp load, is there a sub panel somewhere already? Hidden in a closet? It would seem to be the case. I would trip it off and see what doesn't work any longer. If you don't see anything that quits, it may be a "dead head". If so, you have more capacity that you thought!:p That's a good thing!

Hank

[71cutty455]

Well I've just finished resetting all my clocks from flipping that 60 amp breaker lol, it seems like it turns off EVERYTHING. I did just realize that there is actually no main breaker on the box. Anyone ever seen that? I can't imagine that is the main breaker with just a 60 amp rating. But anyway there are no sub boxes besides the one for the A/C unit. I know I can use the open slots at 2 and 4 to wire the sub box but my concern is there enough capacity to run a sub box for the air compressor and welder?

[Sparkeee24]

Howdy Howdy! You have an old split buss panel. SO! Code says you can have a maximum of 6 breakers to shut off your whole house. 4 on top for large appliances, and 2 for the "split buss" that usually goes towards GLL, or your general lighting load, and various other small appliance circuits. That 60 amp must stay. It along with 4 slots above it make up your main disconnect. You should not put any heavy loads on the loadside (or the bottom parts) of your panel. All your heaviest loads should be off of the top of your panel, those slots before the split buss 60 amp shut-off. I would swap the central AC to the left, and give up the dryer 30 amp slot, or keep it.... Now you have full slots on the right side above the split buss disconnect. Depending on the organization of the buss bars (I pray you do not have a Zinsco, for all our sake)... you WILL have 2 sets of 240 volts circuits available. I would run a 60 amp sub panel. 6-3 wire , and isolate your neutrals. As always, Never work on anything live! Especially as a homeowner... Also! Get rid of that panel immediately!!! if it's a Zinsco or federal pacific. Good luck! Brian Lee Sparkeee27

[CATM93]

71 Cutty 455,

I think that you might have a backfeed 60 amp breaker(based on you saying everything went off when you tripped it) feeding your board. Is your house pre-1960s? Is it possible for you to post a picture of your breaker box with the cover removed? It would help fiquere out what you are dealing with. Do you have an outside disconnect for your panel , or does it have a mainbreaker? I thinkSparkeee24 has hit the nail on the head, but I would still like to see what you are dealing with.

CATM93

[71cutty455]

I will get a picture or two on here when i get home from work a little later. My house was built in 1971 but i believe the box was updated not too long before I bought the house, it looks relatively new. I've owned the house about 3 years. I don't think it's a Zinsco or Federal Pacific, I remember seeing the name of the manufacturer but I'll double check. I had an electrician out a few months ago to give me an estimate on running the 220v out to the garage and he said he uses the same equipment I have now. No outside disconnect, goes straight from the meter to the box. If the price is right I may as well just upgrade to 200 amp service...

[71cutty455]

Here are a couple pics of the box, the manufacturer is Cutler-Hammer. Anyone heard of them? And yes some of that is aluminum wire...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r254/71cutty455/electricalbox002.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r254/71cutty455/electricalbox001.jpg

[hankj]

I'm seriously confused by the picture. It looks like a main lug panel to me. I don't see any disconect. I'm guessing that the number two set of breakers on the left, positions 5 & 7, is the 60A breaker. Where do those wires come into the panel? From the back???
If tripping that breaker turns off a bunch of things in your house, there must be a sub panel somewhere, or else you have a real horror story there.

I think you may still have a horror story. If there's no main disconnect between the meter can and that panel, you have a serious code violation. The only way to kill power to the whole panel is to pull the meter.

If it were mine, I'd replace it with a code compliant main disconnect equipped panel as soon as possible.

Hank

[71cutty455]

Yeah the 60 amp breaker is 5 and 7, I think it turns off all breakers below it. The one above is the dryer circuit which is not in use so I don't know if it turns that off. Like I commented earlier I know it's a mess, I will probably upgrade it to a new 200A box. Is upgrading just a simple matter of having a new load center installed or does anything have to change at the meter?

[hankj]

Looks like Brian had it back a few posts! That's why those two leads for the 60-A breaker come from behind.

Swapping services will require larger service entrance conductors most likely. For 200 amps, you'll need either 2/0 copper or 4/0 aluminum from the pole (or underground) to the new main.

It may be pricey, but in today's energy hungry environment, it would be a good investment.

Hank

[71cutty455]

Well that does sound a bit pricey, more than likely too much to pay for a hobby in my opinion. What about an upgrade to a 150A load center? Can that just be swapped in? I guess what I may do is take Brian's advice and just run a 60A sub, is it ok just to stick a 60A breaker in slots 2-4 and leave everything else as is? I don't think I need to worry about taking the 40A dryer breaker out since it's not in use anyway, I can always take it out later if I need the open slots. Does that sound like a good plan? And again a big THANKS to everyone that has replied.

[whateg0]

I went with a 12 slot fed by a 60amp breaker & now it looks like this:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6384&highlight=ZRX61

I just read the smoke article. ROTFLMAO!!!! (Why is everybody looking at me funny?)

Dave

[Sparkeee24]

Howdy Howdy! OK. That panel is SETUP very awkwardly. I love the un-protected (from physical damage) the line side service entrance cable. Akward part, is how it APPEARS (though I know it can't be, or you'd have a bolted fault, hence tripped breaker) that the larger black, and larger red on the left side, re-feed to the lower split buss on the same phase. Notice at the top, they are two pole, A phase and B phase, now below, it APPEARS to be black on B phase, then skip A phase, and Red on B phase. Just awkward. Curious if someone tried to do a home-made split buss. Don't hit that service entrance with anything. CH makes good equipment. This is a main lug system. I still agree with my first idea. 60 amp sub panel. On a side note, high chance you will not nead to upgrade SERVICE RATING to accomplish this. You WOULD benefit from a main breaker panel, especially with more spaces. Chances are your house rarely draws more then a total of 40 amps at any one time, but it could. If you have a house full of girls, and each one wants to use a hair dryer at the same time kinds thing. Not really likely. We call it diversified load. basically "averaging" that not everything will be on at the same time. That's how load calcs work for residential properties. HOWEVER!! It would still be advised to keep in mind when finances allow, to upgrade to a modern and MUCH SAFER setup for your service. The alluminum wiring can be problamatic at times. the wire itself is not the problem, just the connections on either end. Corrosion is your enemy here. Alluminum corrodes with arcing, or water damage into alluminum oxide...this is a ceramic, an oxide. ceramics are excellent insulators. So now you have alot of juice (backed up) on one side or another of an insulator that is a thin layer. Resistor, which produces high heat, causing in worst case fire. Good news is, in the panel it's an easy fix. De-Ox all the alluminum connections, and replace them back under the lugs, whichever they go under. Do not over tighten, or you actually change the diameter of the wire and create again, a hot spot. firm, but not crushing is good. Re-check after a week or two, amazingly, the aluminum "flows' a tad, after juice is applied for a while. NEVER WORK ON A LIVE PANEL... the alluminum wire at the device side is 50 times more likely to fail. Mostly due to the slight wiggling that occurs within the box when switches or plugs are moved. The BEST method, is to scrap the old device, use special PURPLE wire nuts, rated for both copper AND alluminum conductors under the same wire nut witch has de-ox goop within the nut itself, (though expensive for a wire nut, but cheeper then a house fire) and Pig tail out a 6" lead of copper for each conductor. Then DON'T MESS WITH IT! Aluminum only bends so many times. Put it back in the box, bending as few times as possible, in the same place. blah blah, no more worries about alluminum wire. aluminum wire is rated for different ampacities remember. Recomendations mind you, based on limited info. I'm playing it on the safe side here. Too many ideas? Enjoy! I could type forever on these things! I love figuring this stuff out! But it's so much more fun in person! bummer :( Enjoy! good Luck! Brian Lee Sparkeee27