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View Full Version : I'm confused yet again - Classic 300d and Pipeliner 200D - looking at the very basics



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coalsmoke
09-19-2006, 04:00 AM
If anyone knows how a DC exciter works as is used on the Lincoln Pipeliner and how that compares to whatever process is used on the Classic 300D, I'd really appreciate the clarification. Lincoln doesn't specify in what manner they create the DC welding output on the Classic, just that its pure DC but then they have 3000W AC auxiliary output:confused:
along with Lincolnís well-known pure DC generator design for excellent performance on pipe. but this doesn't appear to be the same as on the Pipeliner,
DC exciter for supplying pure DC current to the welding generator ó as requested by the most discriminating operators. which only has 1750W DC auxiliary output. Is the Classic300D actually producing rectified AC?:confused:

b-footn
09-19-2006, 06:48 AM
Are you in the market for the Classic 300D?

I just tried to order one yesterday, and it's about 3-4 weeks before I can get one.

TRG-42
09-19-2006, 01:04 PM
Both the Classic 300s and the Classic Pipeliner both a generator style machines so they both provide DC welding output . This is the big difference between Classics and all other alternator welders which provide AC output and rectify it to DC

Generator machines need a "exciter" - old SA200s, 6090s, Pipeliners or a "alternator" - all other generator machines like the Classic II , III , 300s . This alternator is always incorrectly refered to as an exciter as well .

Keep in mind this is doohicky at the end of a generator welder only serves to set up the magnetic field via the main generator ( the big round part ) shunt coils . It sets up a stationary magnetic field . More on this later

The difference between the alternator field style generator ( confusing you yet ?? ) and an exciter field style generator ( Classic Pipeliner ) is the way the field current is made. In the alternator style there is also a rectifier to make this field current into DC. This is the big difference between the two

Again, don't confuse this as a rectified alternator machine ( like the Red Lincolns and all the Millers ).

We are only talking about the field current NOT welding current

Back to Stationary Magnetic Field

- This exciter / alternator makes a magnetic field in the generator
- the armature ( part that spins around ) rotates at 1800rpm in this magnetic field
- this induces a voltage in the armature

Big Difference with Generators #1 - the welding current is carried by the spinning inside portion. this means the welding current needs to be brought to the studs via big *** carbon brushes .

Rectified Alternators generate the welding current on the outside portion ( stator ) so it doesn't need to carry the welding current via brushes.

The rectified alternator has a rotating magnetic field ( not stationary ) . It gets the power to set up the magnetic field through much smaller brushes called slip rings


As far as which has a better arc, I certainly can't tell but lots of pipeline guys will swear by the old 6090 / Classic I / Classic Pipleliner over the other generators . Needless to say all the generator guys turn their nose up at all the rectified alternators

Hope that answers your question in a roundabout long winded way

Sberry
09-19-2006, 01:39 PM
I tend to agree with TRG and I am sure we can find someone to disagree but for myself (so this is only an opinion) I cant tell much difference between machines, not that I pay much attn anyway but I would suspect if you blindfold a lot of other guys couldnt either.

coalsmoke
09-19-2006, 01:43 PM
TRG, I was hoping you'd chime in here, thank you, now I understand the difference:cool: I've been pondering it for the last year and until you told me about how
We are only talking about the field current NOT welding current I couldn't get it to click. I knew there was something missing in my head;) But, it makes perfect sense now, and a larger altenator supplying rectified ac to the field coils = room to run ac into the auxiliary outlets. Its funny how someone like you who really knows can make all pieces fit together ;) You don't want to know what some of the techs said when I asked them the same question:eek: "it is all rectified ac output now, its just that lincoln makes a cleaner ac waveform":rolleyes: I didn't want to argue, so I left before I burst into laughing fits rolling on their shop floor.


Are you in the market for the Classic 300D?
I just tried to order one yesterday, and it's about 3-4 weeks before I can get one.
Well, its been on my mind and I'm slowly geting things lined up for my next truck. I figure if I have a classic 300D and the TB302, I'll have a great combo allowing me to do mobile tig, provide substanital auxiliary ac (mostly for around here when we loose power to the house and shop), and have the Lincoln to allow me to grow into the oilfiled market. With the lincoln and TB302 in parallel, I'd have the output similar of the SAE400, which would be used for gouging jobs, and maybe the odd real heavy wire job.

coalsmoke
09-19-2006, 01:47 PM
I tend to agree with TRG and I am sure we can find someone to disagree but for myself (so this is only an opinion) I cant tell much difference between machines, not that I pay much attn anyway but I would suspect if you blindfold a lot of other guys couldnt either.

you know, that would be interesting, to do a comparison where the respondants didn't know which machine they were using. I think you're right, some could tell, but most like me would probably find them both smoother than what we're used to with recitified AC outputs.

On an interesting note, I came across what looks like someone who runs pipeline with a TB302. I don't know the details though, and have sent him an email looking for clarification.

b-footn
09-19-2006, 05:28 PM
I found out today from a few pipeline buddys why the 300D is on backorder. Out on the firing line, the new 300D Classics are not performing like the old machines. The factory is trying to find out why.

coalsmoke
09-19-2006, 10:14 PM
I found out today from a few pipeline buddys why the 300D is on backorder. Out on the firing line, the new 300D Classics are not performing like the old machines. The factory is trying to find out why.
huh, that's the first I heard of it. I heard that they were backlogged because they are short on Perkins engines, unless maybe its the same thing.

Eric Carroll
09-19-2006, 11:34 PM
how would you parallel the two machines?i just got a big blue 400, could I pair this with a 301?

MAC702
09-20-2006, 03:05 AM
how would you parallel the two machines?i just got a big blue 400, could I pair this with a 301?

http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/Paralleling.pdf

vicegrip
09-20-2006, 05:11 AM
TRG, I was hoping you'd chime in here, thank you, now I understand the difference:cool: I've been pondering it for the last year and until you told me about how I couldn't get it to click. I knew there was something missing in my head;) But, it makes perfect sense now, and a larger altenator supplying rectified ac to the field coils = room to run ac into the auxiliary outlets. Its funny how someone like you who really knows can make all pieces fit together ;) You don't want to know what some of the techs said when I asked them the same question:eek: "it is all rectified ac output now, its just that lincoln makes a cleaner ac waveform":rolleyes: I didn't want to argue, so I left before I burst into laughing fits rolling on their shop floor.
.I knew there was something missing in my head too , plenty I fear !:eek:
sure was fun reading and learning from this thread

b-footn
09-20-2006, 06:58 AM
huh, that's the first I heard of it. I heard that they were backlogged because they are short on Perkins engines, unless maybe its the same thing.

For me working distribution, it wouldn't matter. Out on the firing line, it's a matter of keeping up with everybody else. I'm just relating what I have heard.

coalsmoke
09-20-2006, 07:27 PM
For me working distribution, it wouldn't matter. Out on the firing line, it's a matter of keeping up with everybody else. I'm just relating what I have heard.

Makes sense that you'd have some issues if you couldn't keep up there with the rest of the gang. thanks for the heads up, it is appreciated.


I knew there was something missing in my head too , plenty I fear !
sure was fun reading and learning from this thread

heheheh, I;m glad someone else enjoyed this thread as much as myself. I'd be curious to try a miller 304 out along side a 300D, side by side and see what the differences are. I think that while some machines make the job faster or easier than others, we as the welding operators often just accompensate for the differences and get on with it. At the end of the day, the job was still done 100%. So, at least for me, I think I'd have to try them side by side to really notice the differences of each category of machine.

calweld
09-20-2006, 08:14 PM
With the lincoln and TB302 in parallel, I'd have the output similar of the SAE400, which would be used for gouging jobs, and maybe the odd real heavy wire job.

I would be very very hesitant about paralleling two machines as dissimilar as those . . . traditionally, you parallel two machines, same make, same model, output set the same on each. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I could say if this can be done with those machines, I would definitely check before frying a brand new $$$$ generator.

coalsmoke
09-20-2006, 08:19 PM
I would be very very hesitant about paralleling two machines as dissimilar as those . . . traditionally, you parallel two machines, same make, same model, output set the same on each. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I could say if this can be done with those machines, I would definitely check before frying a brand new $$$$ generator.

Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully someone here knows, or I'll give miller a jingle.

lars66
09-20-2006, 09:13 PM
I would be very very hesitant about paralleling two machines as dissimilar as those . . . traditionally, you parallel two machines, same make, same model, output set the same on each. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I could say if this can be done with those machines, I would definitely check before frying a brand new $$$$ generator.

I belive it even goes a step furthure to where all the cables involved in the hook up have to be the same length.

coalsmoke
09-20-2006, 11:01 PM
I would be very very hesitant about paralleling two machines as dissimilar as those . . . traditionally, you parallel two machines, same make, same model, output set the same on each. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I could say if this can be done with those machines, I would definitely check before frying a brand new $$$$ generator.

from Miller:

Paralleling Brush Commutator Design Engine Driven Power Sources Or Motor Generators (Not Recommended) The amperage output of these machines must be exactly balanced, otherwise, one power source tries to drive the other. Paralleling brush commutator design machines is not recommended for this reason. If the outputs are not exactly balanced, the power source supplying the higher output feeds current back to the other power source. The current goes through the paralleled connection, through the brushes to the commutator and is dissipated as heat in the windings. The heat build?up can cause failure of the generator components.

coalsmoke
09-20-2006, 11:05 PM
Here's some more from Miller:

The following equipment can be successfully paralleled:

DC Constant Current (CC) Rectifier-Type Power Sources
DC Constant Current (CC) Inverter-Type Power Sources
DC Constant Current (CC) Rectifier Engine-Driven Power Sources
AC Constant Current (CC) Transformer-Type Power Sources

diesel
09-21-2006, 12:19 AM
Coal, I have never heard a complaint about a 300D. Except there was a rumor around '92 about them going with lighter aluminum windings. I have only been around a few welders that are running a 300D's and the guys that are running these machines are on the same pipe as the 200's. The difference is the 300's belong to the senior more experienced welders. I'm not saying that there is a difference in arc but you won't have duty cycle in the back of your mind while you are blowing 7018 smoke rings at 200 amps around 6" pipe. Do some calculating. Ask yourself honestly "Can or do I want to run hot and fast"? Will you put 10,000 hrs on this machine? You are talking about having a 250 Miller also but with the Miller taking up the all but critical welding slac, will a big Lincoln be necessary? The Lincoln is a great machine. I can tell the difference. Just stab a 7018 into the puddle. My hobart vibrates where the old Lincoln I ran would hiss. Beyond that I couldn't tell the differenced. Right now I'd be cautious. Go to Lincoln. See how fast you can put down a hot pass. On a pipeline all the boss cares about is two things: First and foremost is did the welds pass, second is how many did he get? There are nit picky things but if your fast and consistent that's what will get you more money at the bank. My unvarnished opinion about a big rig like your planning is it's for "in the fence construction". Gas compressors and refinerey stuff. Each welder can work in both environments but pipeliners and fitters are different animals. If you fence in a pipeliner you get a welder that is constantly yelling at people to bring him more pipe and saying the bolts will take up the slack. Let out a good fitter out and they do awesome for a few days then they get bogged down and start putting a sraight edge across the joint that they are going to hot pass and worrying about which way it will pull. There are a lot of welders that go both ways but what is the most important is "can he/she WELD". Extra equipment and tools should be the responsibility of the contractor. I know your looking for an all-in-one rig and it's nice to have these on the job but these are uncommon on a pipeline. What about getting a slightly used cummins 1 ton and a 250 Lincoln to give the the line a shot. Straight and pure pipelining will be the best money for a mobile welder.There's jobs all over the central US right now. Dive in.
d.

Sberry
09-21-2006, 10:27 AM
My poor little 3/4 probably wouldnt tote the SA200 around for long, I see a couple of them doing it though, maybe with some spring help but I would need a couple lessons on downhill pipe. How difficult is it? I have ran a lot of down but never formally or where its tested and I am probably an A- or strong B+ weldor, somewhere in that range. How long would it take for a guy to be passable?

Finney
09-21-2006, 12:50 PM
Coalsmoke,
A lot of the guys are switching from the SA's to the pipe pro because of the arc force control. The 8010,s are bad to undercut from about 4oclock down. When you puddle cap with a SA you have to push metal back kinda like a J hook. When the arc control is set right on a pipe pro or trailblaser you can use a side to side weave. Also a lot easier when you have bad high low.

b-footn
09-22-2006, 01:14 AM
My poor little 3/4 probably wouldnt tote the SA200 around for long, I see a couple of them doing it though, maybe with some spring help but I would need a couple lessons on downhill pipe. How difficult is it? I have ran a lot of down but never formally or where its tested and I am probably an A- or strong B+ weldor, somewhere in that range. How long would it take for a guy to be passable?

For you, probably a trip to Music City and about a case or so of beer under your arm as you rang my doorbell.:D

coalsmoke
09-22-2006, 04:35 AM
Diesel, Finney, B-footn, I appreciate all the comments.

Finney, wouldn't the new custom arc (fine tuning of the kubota's rpm) be an equal equivalent to the Miller's adjustable slope aka arc force control? Is that J motion you are talking about essentially a lengthwise J so that you can fill in the undercut? I have heard people complain of the 8010s, but know nothing of them first hand. I suspect they take more heat to burn, but this is just a whim. Insight is always appreciated;)

B-footn, I have previously heard people complain about problems keeping 3/32 low-hy lit with the 300D, which is strange becuase I always thought these welders naturally had a stiffer arc. None the less, i have sent a letter to lincoln asking them to give me a ehads up on these two issues (snuffing out with the small rod and the speed issues), to see if maybe it was a small run of these machines that had problems, or, maybe that is why they have introduced the custom arc feature where you can adjust the engines rpm. Guys were having to mess around under the welder's hood, so I guess they figured why not make it a control on the front panel. I talked ot a supplier here and he knew nothing of the Lincoln issues, but I am not entirely surprised. My luck with suppliers is that they are great guys, but sometimes they really don't seem to know what's going on out in the field. I have yet to ask my main guys, they might know what's blowing in the wind, but i figured I'd get on with the letter to Lincoln (if they'll let the cat out of the bag that is ;))

Diesel, the plans for the big truck are dead. I was going to go international or freightliner size, went up to some oil patches, saw many things for myself, and realized that a truck like that was indeed too big, in some areas at least. I'm looking at something in the size of a shorter F-550, maybe a 10-11' bed total (from back of cab to back bumper). It would have another vertical storage compartment on each side, compressor in the dog house (middle front) as it is now, and the miller side by side with the 300D. I like having the compressor on the truck, I keep finding new uses for it and air tools are cheap, so I hope to keep it on the truck, and the auxiliary power of the Miller is real handy, as is the mobile tig capability, at least for what I do with it now. But, maybe I should just drop the Miller and have the 300D as a sole machine. I haven't fully decided about the miller, but I have come to a conclusion that my new truck will be the extended cab and the relatively short 162" wheel base. Theoretically, I could drop the miller, engine driven compressor, air tank, and all the other air-related stuff and put the welder on this truck, although I would be maxed out again, and couldn't tow a travel trailer behind me. This prompted the proposed jump to the F-550. I do plan on keeping the 300D (if that's what I end up with) for a long time. I'm the type to keep a good thing as long as reasonably possible, and then some. Good maintenance and some TLC can go a long way on a premium machine like a that. Realistically, I'd probably use the 300D for all DC stick and the miller for everything else, which only constitutes about 25% of my current "working diet." I just don't like the idea of not being able to run a 1750watt grinder and 2000watts of lights at the same time.

Its funny that you should say "Dive in" to me today. I just found out today that our ITA (Industry training Authority - they govern who gets what trade qualifications and what it takes to get them) has revamped and re-opened the challange for C-level, a 7-9month welding training program that covers all the basics. I was quite ticked off because I was preparing to challenge this past summer when I had some spare time, and then the ITA mysteriously closed the challenge program with no word on whether it would re-open again, so I am relieved that they brought it back. They now require more hours to challenge (about 2700 IIRC), but its nothing I don't already have, just have to convince them I have them (pay stubs will help). Just have to do a somewhat-feared written test (shouldn't be anything some studying can't help) and some practical tests/coupons. Once a welder here in BC gets their C level and some work experience, they can train/get educated for 4 more months to write/take the test for B level. Then with their B level, they can get pressure tickets. Long and short of all this, I can now get set up to challenge, and upon passing mainstream into the B level, which is the gateway to pressure tickets.

Finney
09-22-2006, 09:52 AM
Coalsmoke,
I have attached what I call J-Hook and Weave cap.
Yes you can adjust the RPM's and most of the guys will roll the rack to adjust the arc force. I have a SA250 that we will be rigging out next month for son #2. We will be taking it to AirGas repair shop in Owensboro and putting it on a load bank to set it back to factory spec's before he takes it out. The rack and RPM's are off. I took this machine in on a bill a couple of years ago. I offered him a 350D Trailblaser but he wanted to use the 250 until he can buy his own Pipe Pro or 350D.
To me it is so much easier to adjust a knob than to fool with the RPM's or have someone roll the rack.
I will post pictures when we rig his truck out. 98 3/4 Dodge Cummin's, he wants to use the pickup bed for now so we will sit the 250 crossway's behind the cab.

Warning: What I post is my opinion, just like belly buttons and bute holes everyone has one. not to say my opinion is right just my opinion.

BillC
09-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Coalsmoke,
I have attached what I call J-Hook and Weave cap.Finney,

How do you get back to the start again with your J-hook? is it really a clockwise loop progressing down?

Regards,

coalsmoke
09-22-2006, 02:43 PM
Finney,

How do you get back to the start again with your J-hook? is it really a clockwise loop progressing down?

Regards,

i was wondering the same thing.

Finney, I hear you on the opinion thing, and its still appreciated :cool: I had someone tell me once that changing the rack can do more harm than good and generally should be left as it sits. But, I don't know the specifics. He just said that Lincoln made it good enough that most people wouldn't be able to improve on it, and said something about polarity issues when you move it IIRC. the 3/4 will handle it fine, just check that the tires are in decent shape. IMO, you won't have too many issues with weight until you put a deck on the truck. Then you need to upgrade.

ventureline
09-22-2006, 09:56 PM
Yes you can adjust the RPM's and most of the guys will roll the rack to adjust the arc .

When you "roll" the rack, what you are doing is taking the machine out of north / south polarities, thus over heating the generator rotor if you roll more than 1/8" of an inch one way or the other. So if you want to destroy your generator go for it. Lincoln punch marks the brush holders and bearing cap at the optimum polarity. Screwing with it is not a good thing, then again it makes me a lot of money when your machine crashes.

If you want to have a better arc start, best to leave the the rack alone and instead go to larger brushes to pick up an extra commutator bar. You tend to loose a bit of the top end though, also on the 300d's use a better bridge that the cheap stock unit, that helps a great deal as well. The stock bridges tend to break down fast when heated making for an erratic arc.

On a sa200, its popular to install a pto or other locking pull cable to jack the rpm for capping and reset it for regular use.

Finney
09-22-2006, 10:46 PM
BillC,
I start in the center, move up on a angle to the left, stop long enough to fill the hole, roll over to the right, stop long enough to fill the hole, move quickly down about 3/16 past where you started and do it all over again.
Ventureline, I do not dout what you say but there are a lot of machines out there running with the rack rolled.
To me that is another reason to own BLUE you can just turn a knob.

ventureline
09-22-2006, 11:05 PM
If someone brings in a 300D thats still on warranty that happens to have a blown generator with a rolled brush holder, guess what....... "0" warranty.

Sberry
09-23-2006, 02:58 AM
We run SA200's splicing columns, big groove butt welds, its been a long time ago so I cant remember exactly what size the electrodes were but they were huge and we cranked the machines to the max, wide open every ounce wrung right out rod after rod as much as a guy could stand. It was winter and bitter cold so I am sure the machines liked that because we had to preheat so once we start we went till we finish the joint. Way beyond their duty cycle then some, I would assume if it wasnt 10 or 20 degrees out it would have burnt them up, man they really groan but kept running. We had about half a dozen and they all kept going. It probably would have cooked them in Arizona. Jeff, I am sure you put one on a load bank, whats the most it will output?

calweld
09-23-2006, 02:10 PM
and the miller side by side with the 300D.

Stack 'em. Saves on bed space :D :D :D

coalsmoke
09-23-2006, 02:52 PM
Stack 'em. Saves on bed space :D :D :D

Thanks, I needed that :D

I just have to ask, is that photochopped or did you really do that:eek: :D

calweld
09-23-2006, 03:10 PM
Thanks, I needed that :D

I just have to ask, is that photochopped or did you really do that:eek: :D

I'm not that tech-savvy:o , I really did that. Had to move the other machine over to the diesel tank to fill it, saw the photo-op on the way back, you can't see the forklift and chain in the picture :) :)

coalsmoke
09-24-2006, 03:17 PM
you can't see the forklift and chain in the picture :) :)
Sneaky:D

Have any of you tried running the Vantage 300? I had a friend (who really knows his stuff) suggest that I consider the Vantage 300, and he felt that it is a pipe and pipeline capable machine. I know that they have pretty good power output ratings, both in auxiliary AC and the DC CC and DC pipe mode for SMAW The only thing nagging me is that when I went on my "Great Oilfield Tour" this past summer, I didn't see a single vantage on the backs of any pipeline rigs. Saw a couple millers, half a dozen rangers, lots and lots of classics (or similar lincoln pure DC) machines, but no Vantage. :confused:

ventureline
09-24-2006, 05:47 PM
There is oodles of Vantages out there, most have covers on ao you don't recognize them this time of year though...

Unless your at sea level don't go with the Vantage 300 Kubota, instead go with the 300 Duetz, the 400 Perkins, or the 500 Cummins.

spuddown
09-24-2006, 11:31 PM
There is oodles of Vantages out there, most have covers on ao you don't recognize them this time of year though...

Unless your at sea level don't go with the Vantage 300 Kubota.

Why and why not?

Sberry
09-24-2006, 11:46 PM
So, it seems a piece of pipe cant be welded with the GS8000 I carry on my truck?

NOS
09-25-2006, 12:49 AM
Its really nice to be humbled by most of ya posting imfo on this thread. I have learned alot from ya. Ventureline and others,,,thanks.

diesel
09-25-2006, 01:19 AM
Here's a question. Does anybody know of or has a Miller or Ranger with more than 10,000 hrs still with all the major factory hardware?
d.

calweld
09-25-2006, 01:54 AM
Here's a question. Does anybody know of or has a Miller or Ranger with more than 10,000 hrs still with all the major factory hardware?
d.

Hahahahaha Funny guy. Miller Trailblazers, most I ever got was 2600 hours, that machine now has 2800 total with new owner, blew PC after I sold it to them. Other two only made it to 2000 or so, after two or three PC boards each I parked them. Last one has 1200 hours, rate I'm using it it should last another ten years. Total, close to 8000 hours on trailblazers, but it took 4 machines to do it :rolleyes: :o :o

coalsmoke
09-25-2006, 03:05 AM
There is oodles of Vantages out there, most have covers on ao you don't recognize them this time of year though...

Unless your at sea level don't go with the Vantage 300 Kubota, instead go with the 300 Duetz, the 400 Perkins, or the 500 Cummins.

I guess I just wasn't lucky enough to see them. I kid you not, saw over 20 classics, 6 rangers, 3 blue, but no stainless steel skins. I'm curious about your reccomendation against the Kubota. now, i am close to sea level (within the bottom 1000'), and would follow a Kubota to **** and back, so this is news to me. Is the Kubota by chance engineered such that it does not do well with the higher elevations because of the intake pressure changes robbing horse power? I have heard that naturally aspirated deisel engiens can be quite sensitive to elevation changes, but haven't experienced this in person. The gasser I currently have keeps on chugging, whether it be 1000' or 5000'

I was also looking at the vantage 400, looks like a great compromise with its 33hp engine.

NOS, glad you are liking this thread.

I would have to agree with Calweld about the longevity of a small gasser, be it a ranger 305 Miller bobcat or trailblazer. I expect 3000hours of relatively trouble free use, and then after that I doubt I will be counting on it as a reliable powersource. Time will tell though, and these synthetic oil chages will help. Lets also keep in mind that if the Trailblazer (or any other generator / welder) is making money 70% of the time its running, those 3000hours will see me through $151,000 worth of billing. If I get to that point and have a used up machine, I will not be the least bit dissapointed about its retirement.

ventureline
09-25-2006, 10:04 AM
Vantage kubotas are rated at 22hp at sea level, well at 3500ft where edmonton sits at, that hp drops to around 20, at Mcmurray and northern Alberta it drops a ittle more. The governers are electronic, and fhe diesel shops can't get into the code to reset them for the correct altitudes..

The Duetz is 24 hp, and is made for this altitude as well can be easily adjusted to match any altitude, it's better on fuel, able to run 1/4" and is the same price as the Kubota,

True its a little noisier for a 4 cyl water cooled engine, but it has gobs of torque and doesn't shake the sh*t out of the covers in idle.

As for the Ranger engines, simply use 5-50 synthetic engine oil year round. I've got customers with over 4500 hrs off a year 2000 unit, also seal the toggle switches with toogle boots to prevent water damage, and naturally check your AC frequency for high and low idles so your boards don't pop.

Dinasoar oil is the killer of these engines

coalsmoke
09-25-2006, 03:11 PM
Vantage kubotas are rated at 22hp at sea level, well at 3500ft where edmonton sits at, that hp drops to around 20, at Mcmurray and northern Alberta it drops a ittle more. The governers are electronic, and fhe diesel shops can't get into the code to reset them for the correct altitudes..

The Duetz is 24 hp, and is made for this altitude as well can be easily adjusted to match any altitude, it's better on fuel, able to run 1/4" and is the same price as the Kubota,

True its a little noisier for a 4 cyl water cooled engine, but it has gobs of torque and doesn't shake the sh*t out of the covers in idle.

As for the Ranger engines, simply use 5-50 synthetic engine oil year round. I've got customers with over 4500 hrs off a year 2000 unit, also seal the toggle switches with toogle boots to prevent water damage, and naturally check your AC frequency for high and low idles so your boards don't pop.

Dinasoar oil is the killer of these engines

Hey thanks for the info. I had no idea that the new Kubotas had an electronic governing system. Do you know are the new deisel emmissions rules that are affecting trucks this 2007 also going to be in place on welders? I can't imagine putting a particulate filter on such a small engine:eek:

I'm running synthetic in this one, Mobil 1( a real synthetic, not a extra clean dino oil like Syntec). Before I bought my machine, I had an engineering contact at Kohler, and they had studies to show that synthetic made a substantial difference. After finding out about that, I'll always use synthetic in my small engines. The long term added cost is negligible IMO.

When you say
naturally check your AC frequency for high and low idles so your boards don't pop, do you mean to ensure that the freq is within spec, which is controlled via engine rpm, or did you mean something else. I checked the run speed freq and it was fine, but I never made a point of checking it at idle.

Does anyone know if the arc on the Vantage the same as that on the Ranger 305. Both have chopper arc CC output and a downhill pipe mode output. It sort of seems redundant that they have both the Vantage 300 and the Ranger 305 diesel.

ventureline
09-25-2006, 05:34 PM
Arc is the same, as both the Vantage and Ranger use virtually the same control boards, the chopper board is somewhat different and not interchangeable.

Your looking for 45 hz low idle and 61-62 hz high idle, yes frequency is controlled by engine rpm, though don't adjust engine by RPM itself without referencing by AC frequency.

The 305D is a different engine, and a little more on the crappy side compared to the Vantage. It needs an electric fan upgrade, (factory one won't let the engine warm up in the winter) and it tends to shake the sh*t out of the end rotor bearing, had to replace lots of them so far. I no longer recomend them to anyone

NOS
09-25-2006, 10:33 PM
Yea Coalsmoke! I'm learning alot from you guys. Nice to finally read something posted by men that actually know what they are talkin about 1st hand. I do have a question tho and then I'll back outa here and just read.
I've had several large diesel trucks, and have always used Delo 400 15w 40. In the last Cat. It was Delvac 15w40. (synthetic blend) I run this same Delo 15w40 in my welder and gensets. Is this a bad thing? Are the synthetics like Mobil 1 really better? Thanks for the wonderful imformation gentlemen! R.

ventureline
09-25-2006, 10:46 PM
Not a good plan to run full synthetics in a diesel engine. Delvac is good, though any good quality 15-40 will suffice.

Full synthetics are best in a gasoline powered engine only

coalsmoke
09-25-2006, 10:51 PM
Yea Coalsmoke! I'm learning alot from you guys. Nice to finally read something posted by men that actually know what they are talkin about 1st hand. I do have a question tho and then I'll back outa here and just read.
I've had several large diesel trucks, and have always used Delo 400 15w 40. In the last Cat. It was Delvac 15w40. (synthetic blend) I run this same Delo 15w40 in my welder and gensets. Is this a bad thing? Are the synthetics like Mobil 1 really better? Thanks for the wonderful imformation gentlemen! R.

In a small displacemnt gasoline engine, yes, they are noticeably superior In a smaller diesel engine, I'm not so sure and won't comment definitively because I just don't have the experience with the smaller diesel engines (I'm not one to gamble with other people's investments). However, on larger deisel engines the benifits of a true synthetic over a high grade oil like Delo 400 (one of the best currently out there), are considerably less. I suspect that the same would hold true on these smaller displacement but equally low rpm (1800 rpm) diesel engines, but I personally don't have any evidence in the small diesel engine market to back this hunch up. I wouldn't have any issues running Delo 400 in a diesel welder (providing the viscosities and grade requirements were met), but, I'm unsure of whether or not the synthetics would be worth the added cost. I imagine someone else here knows much more about small displacement low rpm diesel engines. I suspect that much of this has to do with the natural lubricity found in most fuel oils.

JTMcCracken
09-25-2006, 11:18 PM
[QUOTE=ventureline;236881]When you "roll" the rack, what you are doing is taking the machine out of north / south polarities, thus over heating the generator rotor if you roll more than 1/8" of an inch one way or the other. So if you want to destroy your generator go for it. Lincoln punch marks the brush holders and bearing cap at the optimum polarity. Screwing with it is not a good thing, then again it makes me a lot of money when your machine crashes.

QUOTE]


I'd hazard a somewhat educated guess that well over 90% of all mainline pipeline machines in the U.S. are happily running for years and years with the rack rolled. I've worked around quite a few old machines dating into the early 50's that have spent their entire working life (over 50 years) chugging along nicely without ever "destroying" the generator.
That's just the way it's been done for over half a century now.


JTMcC.

NOS
09-25-2006, 11:28 PM
Thanks again.....now get back on topic ya'll so I can read some more. BTW, I ran a Vantage 500 and it was wonderful, & the 350 Ranger diesel blew my Champ outa the water! Wish I needed the 500 but the ":money lady "was not impressed! She said that the Champ. was fine! Guess shes right for what I do.. Rock-on boys & thanks again!:D

ventureline
09-25-2006, 11:42 PM
When the rack is rolled, your pulling the machine out of polarity, that makes heat. + your either gaining ocv, or substracting it The subtraction makes for a colder start, and you loose top end, while the addition makes for a harsher start.and you loose bottom end. Moving the brush holder 1" in either direction makes you loose around 100 amps one way or the other (on a 300D). This heats up the generator windings drasticaly even when not welding due to the polatity placement. Yes, It is common to roll the rack, but a little pointless when larger brushes will give you the smooth start your looking for by simply picking up an extra com.

Tell ya what, go turn your rack, run it up and touch the rack and cables with an ungloved hand, pretty hot ehhh That can't be too good for the generator

Do you think Lincoln engineers were stupid for marking the optimum polarity. or maybe the end user knows better than an engineer.

I don't care personally, but after around 50 generator rebuilds a year at $3000 a pop.
I make pretty good money on your little adjustments...

JTMcCracken
09-26-2006, 10:43 AM
You can carry on about moving the rack an inch, or moving it an eighth. That's immaterial to the real world discussion as no one rolls the rack more than a sixteenth. You can continue on and comment on rolling it 25 feet if you want but it has no relation to the real world and is a gross exageration of how people actually treat the $10,000 machines they personally own and make their living with.
Besides, you blew your credibility on Lincoln engine drives a long time ago when you told the world that my Classic II was some custom creation as Lincoln never put a Deutz in a 250.
I'm off to work so continue on as long as you like.

JTMcC.

It's similar to you argueing that you can't start one SA200 off another running SA200 by jumping the leads. Even tho many people posted that they had personally seen or done it many times, you post "theory" "proving" that it was an impossibality. When theory comes in contact with real, and real wins it means the theory is faulty. These machines have been jumped off via the welding leads millions of times on right-of-ways, in the oil patch, on construction sites and out behind the barn.
Reality wins, every time.

coalsmoke
09-26-2006, 02:10 PM
JT, I'd be interested in hearing your take on the Vantage machines and how they stack up to the classics. I know the base differences, but how do they actually make it when out in the field. Aside from them being a relatively new platform, are they showing up in the oilfields down that way too? Does that downhill pipe mode really let you vary the amperage with arc length or does it not do a good enough job of replecating the results found in the classics to be considered for that kind of work?

On a side and separate note, I was talking with a lincoln rep, asking him why I hear of some of these classcis not being able to run the smaller 3/32 without snuffing out, and he wasn't sure, but put found out through the lincoln engine drive project manager that taking the rack out of spec can cause this, which now makes sense, if you loose bottom end, you are probably loosing some of the voltage that goes with that usable current, = snuffed-out small electrode. Or, at least it makes sense in my head:rolleyes:

ventureline
09-26-2006, 06:53 PM
You can carry on about moving the rack an inch, or moving it an eighth. That's immaterial to the real world discussion as no one rolls the rack more than a sixteenth. You can continue on and comment on rolling it 25 feet if you want but it has no relation to the real world and is a gross exageration of how people actually treat the $10,000 machines they personally own and make their living with.
Besides, you blew your credibility on Lincoln engine drives a long time ago when you told the world that my Classic II was some custom creation as Lincoln never put a Deutz in a 250.
I'm off to work so continue on as long as you like.

So I made a mistake on the Classic 2, should have reasearched a little, the only ones we've seen have a Continental retrofit, snce they are very few up here. SA200's and 3ds prevail. Really the onlly Duetz we work on in the Air cooled Commanders and the Water cooled Duetz Vantage

JTMcC.

It's similar to you argueing that you can't start one SA200 off another running SA200 by jumping the leads. Even tho many people posted that they had personally seen or done it many times, you post "theory" "proving" that it was an impossibality. When theory comes in contact with real, and real wins it means the theory is faulty. These machines have been jumped off via the welding leads millions of times on right-of-ways, in the oil patch, on construction sites and out behind the barn.
Reality wins, every time.

Trried this on a couple of SA 200 1954 stubbys, spun over well with out turning the generator by hand
Tried it on a 1968, & 72 SA200 worked ok providing the one being turned over was given a hand crank to get the generator turning. The Classic 1's don't apear to want to turn over at all, and since they don't have a hand crank to spin them so we couldn't proceed further.

I don't think I'd push my luck on the 300D's without taking out the flashing diode, and other damage.

Sh*t happens.

b-footn
09-26-2006, 09:02 PM
Trried this on a couple of SA 200 1954 stubbys, spun over well with out turning the generator by hand
Tried it on a 1968, & 72 SA200 worked ok providing the one being turned over was given a hand crank to get the generator turning. The Classic 1's don't apear to want to turn over at all, and since they don't have a hand crank to spin them so we couldn't proceed further.

I don't think I'd push my luck on the 300D's without taking out the flashing diode, and other damage.

Sh*t happens.

We all know that you can help a buddy out on the pipeline by using your leads to turn over his machine when it won't crank, (Lincoln,Miller, generator machines). Since I am running an inverter Miller machine, in bold letters next to the lead blocks it states "Welder will not start by applying power to leads". I think that this should end this particular debate. (Glow plugs are a wonderful thing on my machine, along with some long jumper cables in case I need to use the truck to jump her off)

coalsmoke
09-26-2006, 10:13 PM
We all know that you can help a buddy out on the pipeline by using your leads to turn over his machine when it won't crank, (Lincoln, Miller, generator machines). Since I am running an inverter Miller machine, in bold letters next to the lead blocks it states "Welder will not start by applying power to leads". I think that this should end this particular debate. (Glow plugs are a wonderful thing on my machine, along with some long jumper cables in case I need to use the truck to jump her off)

When did Miller make a generator welder? (not saying they didn't, I just don't know of any miller generator configurations)

NOS
09-26-2006, 10:30 PM
Question........I've heard of this jump- starting another machine from yours for a long time, but never tried it. (didn't have a need to) Are you guys hooking the welers leads to the others battery, or are ya relying on the generator to spin the engine? Either way,,,I like b-footins answer best just using some jumper-cables off of the truck. I've had a battery blow up in my face and thank goodness it didn't hurt my looks a bit! (I'm still pretty!;) ) How is this done safely?

b-footn
09-26-2006, 11:05 PM
When did Miller make a generator welder? (not saying they didn't, I just don't know of any miller generator configurations)

I'm just assuming that you can join leads to a Miller, never tried it as I've been around Lincoln machines all the time, except for my own Miller invertor machine. (I catch all the flak about running a Miller on a pipe job)

coalsmoke
09-27-2006, 12:03 AM
I'm just assuming that you can join leads to a Miller, never tried it as I've been around Lincoln machines all the time, except for my own Miller invertor machine. (I catch all the flak about running a Miller on a pipe job)
I don't think you can do it to any machine that is an altenator configuration, whether it be via inverter or rectifier. I would imagine that if it wasn't hardwired as a dc generator it wouldn't work.

JTMcCracken
09-27-2006, 07:47 PM
JT, I'd be interested in hearing your take on the Vantage machines and how they stack up to the classics. I know the base differences, but how do they actually make it when out in the field. Aside from them being a relatively new platform, are they showing up in the oilfields down that way too? Does that downhill pipe mode really let you vary the amperage with arc length or does it not do a good enough job of replecating the results found in the classics to be considered for that kind of work?




Oil field work and pipeline work are two different animals. There is a bit of overlap, and most pipeliners have at least been in an oil field once, but the work differs a lot. You see all manner of machines in use in the oil patch. Lincoln generators still reign but there are a lot of people (especially those just getting in) that throw a small Lincoln or Miller in their old pickup and go to work. The closer you get to mainline pipeline work the more specialized the machines become.
I know there are quite a few Vantages working in the oil patch and there are full time pipeliners using them as well. I hear of happy Vantage owners in both fields. Vantages are a lot more versatile than a generator if that matters. If'n I wanted to work across a broad spectrum of work and needed a ton of auxillary power and still be able to survive in the downhill pipe world I'd probably buy a Vantage. I've never run a Vantage 300 but I've run a Vantage 400, the ac is definitly noticable to me but I've driven SA-200's and Classics for many years. I think if you took a pure-d dc SA-200 as one extreme, and a standard rectified ac engine driven machine as the other end, the Vantages would fall roughtly 3/4's of the way toward the real deal dc machine (to me). I do know there are pipeliners (old timers) that have run old SA-200's for decades that are happy with their Vantages. I've never owned any chopper machine but I've driven a lot of them and they are a large step ahead of any rectified ac machine.
The arc force (or whatever they call it) on the Vantage I ran gave a really wide range of adjustment, and it for sure makes a large difference in the arc. They are also a lot cheaper than a generator.
I've also talked to several PipePro owners that are happy with the way the machines weld, but almost all of them have had reliability problems and some don't care for the high rpm's they turn. Anectdotal evidence I know, but that's what I'm hearing.
My opinion only, take it or leave it.

JTMcC.

coalsmoke
09-27-2006, 08:28 PM
Oil field work and pipeline work are two different animals. There is a bit of overlap, and most pipeliners have at least been in an oil field once, but the work differs a lot. You see all manner of machines in use in the oil patch. Lincoln generators still reign but there are a lot of people (especially those just getting in) that throw a small Lincoln or Miller in their old pickup and go to work. The closer you get to mainline pipeline work the more specialized the machines become.
I know there are quite a few Vantages working in the oil patch and there are full time pipeliners using them as well. I hear of happy Vantage owners in both fields. Vantages are a lot more versatile than a generator if that matters. If'n I wanted to work across a broad spectrum of work and needed a ton of auxillary power and still be able to survive in the downhill pipe world I'd probably buy a Vantage. I've never run a Vantage 300 but I've run a Vantage 400, the ac is definitly noticable to me but I've driven SA-200's and Classics for many years. I think if you took a pure-d dc SA-200 as one extreme, and a standard rectified ac engine driven machine as the other end, the Vantages would fall roughtly 3/4's of the way toward the real deal dc machine (to me). I do know there are pipeliners (old timers) that have run old SA-200's for decades that are happy with their Vantages. I've never owned any chopper machine but I've driven a lot of them and they are a large step ahead of any rectified ac machine.
The arc force (or whatever they call it) on the Vantage I ran gave a really wide range of adjustment, and it for sure makes a large difference in the arc. They are also a lot cheaper than a generator.
I've also talked to several PipePro owners that are happy with the way the machines weld, but almost all of them have had reliability problems and some don't care for the high rpm's they turn. Anectdotal evidence I know, but that's what I'm hearing.
My opinion only, take it or leave it.

JTMcC.

JT, thank you. I couldn't have asked for a better response. I would consider the pipepro, but like you, I have heard of more than one issue with them, especially out here where for much of the year the humidity is very high. As I try more and more red and blue machines, I am starting to see a pattern emerge. Some things can't be rushed, they can only be found with real experience. I'm learning that too;)

b-footn
09-27-2006, 08:53 PM
As a pipepro owner for the last 4 years, my Miller rep, (not the retailer), says that nobody is having problems with their machine but me. It would be interesting to find out exactly what is going on. Miller just gave me a "new to me machine", to replace my HELP 1 code piece of crap. The factory techs know my name quite well, and I am waiting to see if they even let me know what the problem was with my machine when they dissect it.

I've been on some jobs with some 798ers, who had pipepros, but the nature of the biz is that union and independents don't mix. Never had the opportunity to sit down and shoot the sheet over a beer with someone who took the plunge like I did with a pipepro.

NOS
09-27-2006, 09:24 PM
My 1st. engine driven welder was an sa 200. Clapped out, and engine knockin like a monkey with a hammer trying to get out. Ran that old gray Lincoln for about 20 years til it finally spun a rod bearing. Costed more for a new crank than the Hobart costed new.

JT...I was wrong about ya a year ago, and I'm sorry! Honest! Don't expect this will fix what I said to ya,,,but it's true. "Have a,,,,NICE,,,,day" Sir! R.

PS...trying to mend bridges? Not my style! Have a day Sir!;)

JTMcCracken
09-27-2006, 10:35 PM
Question........I've heard of this jump- starting another machine from yours for a long time, but never tried it. (didn't have a need to) Are you guys hooking the welers leads to the others battery, or are ya relying on the generator to spin the engine? Either way,,,I like b-footins answer best just using some jumper-cables off of the truck. I've had a battery blow up in my face and thank goodness it didn't hurt my looks a bit! (I'm still pretty!;) ) How is this done safely?


Yes, connecting the welding leads from a running machine to the welding leads of a non running machine, the generator spins the non running engine into life. I've seen it done on SA-200's, and 250 and 300 and 400 Lincoln engine drives, all older machines. This came about in the days when starters were not standard equipment on SA-200's, they were an option that cost extra. Starters didn't become standard equipment until into the 1970's. So with a machine that has no starter, jumper cables are not an option. Not so common now as all machines come with a starter, and most all of the old ones have been retrofitted by now.
The proper method is to turn both dials all the way down on the machine to be started, and on the machine that's already running put the range switch on the 200 range and the fine control on about 40 and ler er rip. It doesn't take long.

DANGER! DANGER! DON'T DO THIS :) You can also use your welding leads as jumper cables going directly to a low battery on a car or tractor or such, farmers have done it for years. You start with the range switch as low as it will go, the fine control as low as it will go, and work your way up to about 20 or 30 on the fine control. That starts most everything. Blowing up batteries is bad for your health as most everyone knows. So really I guess it can't be done "safely".
Make note that I don't recomend either of these methods (especially the latter), in fact I would discourage anyone from trying either. You'll probably die if you try ;) But both have been done since long before I was born.
This information is courtesy of some salty old pipeliners I know who have much more knowledge and experience starting things (and blowing up 6 volt tractor batteries jumping with the leads to the battery) with their welding machine than I'll ever have.

JTMcC.

JTMcCracken
09-27-2006, 10:42 PM
My 1st. engine driven welder was an sa 200. Clapped out, and engine knockin like a monkey with a hammer trying to get out. Ran that old gray Lincoln for about 20 years til it finally spun a rod bearing. Costed more for a new crank than the Hobart costed new.

JT...I was wrong about ya a year ago, and I'm sorry! Honest! Don't expect this will fix what I said to ya,,,but it's true. "Have a,,,,NICE,,,,day" Sir! R.

PS...trying to mend bridges? Not my style! Have a day Sir!;)


Just for the record, "Have a Day!" is not a derogetory remark. Quite the opposite, it's a friendly comment I use with everybody.
When my now 4 year old daughter was just learning to talk I'd go off to work by telling her to have a good day, so she started sending me off to work, standing on the back porch, waving, and hollering "Have a Day!". I liked it so much I've used it ever since.

Lot's of people get irritated at me, I usually don't hold it against them.

And don't call me "sir", my parents were married;)

JTMcC.

NOS
09-27-2006, 11:09 PM
Yer too ****ed old to have a "just now 4 year old daughter"!......ain't ya? Christ I'm gettin old!:( My kids are grown...sorta. ) 1 is a surgeon in the US Navy, primarily attached to a Seal Team, and the other is a Staff Sergeant in the US Army training Navy Seals and Army Rangers @ Ft. Irwin, Ca. that are bound for Irac. His "team" spent 15 months in country togeather, and play war as the bad-guys to get the special opps. newbies tuned-up before they have to live the life in Iraq or Afganastan or where-ever for real. Glad yer baby can tell ya to "have a day"!:D Sorry again JT! I was wrong about you. Have a day!

Pile Buck
09-27-2006, 11:14 PM
Oh JT you do jock my memory at times. The last time I used a welder on a battery was to start a 2900 Manitowoc truck crane.

I know Iíve started a welding machine by connecting the leads also, but for the life of me I canít remember where.

I also remember using an old SA 200 that had a hand crack just like a model T, when they showed me my new machine I was in shock, believe it or not it was one of the smoothest machines Iíve ever used ;)

JTMcCracken
09-27-2006, 11:27 PM
Yer too ****ed old to have a "just now 4 year old daughter"!......ain't ya?


Well, my 4 year old daughter has a 2 year old sister if that tells you anything:)
I'm just a kid!

JTMcC.

JTMcCracken
09-27-2006, 11:32 PM
Oh JT you do jock my memory at times. The last time I used a welder on a battery was to start a 2900 Manitowoc truck crane.

I know Iíve started a welding machine by connecting the leads also, but for the life of me I canít remember where.

I also remember using an old SA 200 that had a hand crack just like a model T, when they showed me my new machine I was in shock, believe it or not it was one of the smoothest machines Iíve ever used ;)


When it's really cold, the first engine on the job that starts sometimes ends up starting everything else, huh?
I've used a rosebud many a cold morning to get a welding machine to turn over and fire. With great caution of course.
I've started small fires under the oil pan quite a few time as well. Blueprints wadded up in an empty welding rod can will give you just enough warmth to start them old girls a lot of times.

JTMcC.

NOS
09-27-2006, 11:44 PM
JT yer so fulla **** I'm startin to believe you and Mac are twins! Yer a kid?...Mac is too young to rent a bottle? ...I really am gettin too old for this! How smart are you 2 gonna be when I'm........... Never mind! By then I won't give a ****.;)

J Hall
09-28-2006, 06:55 AM
When it's really cold, the first engine on the job that starts sometimes ends up starting everything else, huh?

Been there many times, done the rosebud/ weedburner torch trick too.
with a little care it is possible to charge 24v batteries with a Ranger 305.

I was on a job in the '80s and the ******** contractor brought in a load of SA200s on a flat trailer and dumped them off for the crew. they would get one running and the others would drag their leads to him and touch the others off. saw this daily..

Pile Buck
09-28-2006, 08:13 AM
Only one time did the cold weather ever get really troublesome for me. I think it was 1988 we were driving the concrete piles for a dock at the Port of Olympia. It was about a week worth of problems, every morning we had to break ice with the work skiff to get out to the derrick:confused: , Budd inlet has so much fresh water dumped into it, that little bay would freeze. It was the rose bud trick, and cans of ether:eek: to get all the engines running. Well about 2-days in a row of not getting up and running until about noon, job site management decided that we would top off all the engines at night and let them run. Normally we would just shut down for a few days until this kind of weather passed. When ever the weather would impact us enough we couldnít meet our estimated piles per day they would send us home, but we had to drive out this job, and get up to Bellingham and drive that job out before the fish closure starting March 15. If I remember correctly the LDs for both of these jobs were around $100,000 a day. So the company would settle for 2 or 3 piles a day, as long as we were going forward.

JTMcCracken
10-01-2006, 07:48 PM
JT, thank you. I couldn't have asked for a better response. I would consider the pipepro, but like you, I have heard of more than one issue with them, especially out here where for much of the year the humidity is very high. As I try more and more red and blue machines, I am starting to see a pattern emerge. Some things can't be rushed, they can only be found with real experience. I'm learning that too;)


There are several options available for a dude that intends to weld everything from code quality pipe to heavy equipment repairs. I know quite a few people who weld on heavy equipment and use Lincoln engine drives.
A good friend of mine is a retired Union Steamfitter and has a full size Peterbilt truck with a 10,000 lbs. boom, an AirVantage 500 and a Commander 500 and a PowerMig 300 with pulse on pulse, a humongus plaz, plus many wirefeeders, track torches, ect., ect. He also does Line Boring work and has a custom box full of 10,000 lbs. of line boring equipment. But on occasion he also welds/fabricates miscellanious pipe.
He used to have a Commander 500 and a SAM 400 on the truck and bought the AirVantage for the auxillary power (for a large plasma and for the line boring equipment) and the large amount of compressed air it puts out (they arc gouge with both 500 amp machines using the air off the AirVantage), but he still misses the SAM 400 as he says it was more of a horse than either of the 500's. The SAM 400 also runs large flux core and metal core wires as hard as either 500. But it lacks the huge auxillary ac output. If it wasn't for his big need for aux. power he'd be better off with that old Perkins powered workhorse SAM. This guy burns 3/32" wire by the pallet load (thru LN-9's and LN-25's)and grosses over $500,000 per year with one employee. So if you have the truck to haul it I think the Lincoln 400's with the wire feed module (allowing CC and CV) are very capable machines.
A Classic 300D or 3D will do a ton of heavy equipment type work as well in my opinion and will sit on the back of a one ton and still make code quality downhill pipe welds relatively fast. Add a wire feed module and you can run wire at fairly high amperages for long durations.
Anything under a 300 will limit you on heavy equipment welding eventually. Deposition rates rule in that segment of the welding world. You can burn all the 1/4" LoHi you want on reskinning a dozer, but a dude with a flux core wire feeder/a machine that will drive it/ and a truckload of large NS3M wire will put you out of business shortly by doing the job in 60% of the time it takes the dude with the big stick to get done. That doesn't apply in code quality pipe work but it really does in equipment repair. Try quoting a set of grousers on a D-10 with a trailblazer/burning stick, against a guy burning NS3M flux core or a 71 series dual shield wire with a horse of a machine. It's not even close.
I also believe that running the flux core and dual shield wires is a much more pleasant experience running a DC generator with wire feed module (Lincoln's term for the CV output conversion unit) than it is using a rectified ac machine, and even a little better than using one of the Chopper machines. Smooth is smooth regardless of the process.
Bottom line is that if I was to want to weld heavy equipment, but retain the ability to work in the oil patch, I'd have a Lincoln 300 amp diesel with a wire feed module (my second choice would be a Vantage 400) on a late model one ton Dodge/Cummins/6 speed (because I'm partial to them) or, if I could tolerate the engines they use (and I can't), a Ford F-450/550, 4X4, and an LN-25 with a Lincoln gun for flux core plus a Tweco Spray Master gun for dual shield. Put an easily removable air compressor on the back and away you go, not much in those two areas of work you can't deal with efficiently.
I live in a rural part of Northern Arizona and our power is out quite a few times in the course of a year, that makes a Vantage pretty appealing as it would run the water well and the house easily during outages. But still, in the end, I'm pretty partial to Lincoln DC power. I might just buy a Vantage as a backup and as outage power for the shack tho:;) plus they look so nice with that ss case:)

My take only and as always either take it or leave it.

John

NOS
10-01-2006, 09:43 PM
JT, Who the hells this guy workin for? Not doubtin ya but 500K per year? Thats $137.00 an hour, 10 hours a day, 7 days a week ,for 365 days w/o a day off! This is one tough dude! :eek: I met a nice young guy that has the biggest Miller air-welder I ever saw, (IR compressor and Deutz diesel built right in) set smack in the middle of a brand new 14,000# welding rig, does line-boaring on heavy eqpt. , has the feeders etc, and the boys good, tho he can't hardly make the payments on his rig. Tell me who your pal is workin for, and I'll send that boy some help so he can take a day off! Hells-bells! Maybe I'll come too! I am a fantastic camp-cook!;)

Where in Az?

JTMcCracken
10-01-2006, 09:55 PM
His hourly rate is more than $137/hour for two hands, especially when line boring as he has well over $250,000 of boring equipment. In work that is bid hard money it is common to make more than your reasonable hourly rate, and the more equipment you have on a job the more you charge for. Go price the rental of a small crane or a large forklift for a year. He runs that 10,000 lbs. boom off and on all day when they bore all new holes in a scraper. It's all relative.
7/12's adds up fast. In fact I think he needs to raise his rates as bit.

JTMcC.

Really that's cheap. Empire Machinery (the Cat dealer) has a line boring guy and they charge I believe $98/hr for one man, that's the same as the Empire mechanic rate. John Deere is at $102/hr for one mechanic. The Chevy dealer in Kingman is at $95/hr for a mechanic. My buddy shows up with more and better equipment than the Cat line borer, two welders/machinist instead of one, does far better work at a lower price. He's overcome with work (and has been for over 10 years) and is only taking off now because his wife is in late stage terminal cancer.
He works for contractors large and small, in Arizona and Nevada. This dude has a sterling reputation for being fast and efficient, and has the tools to field bore just about any common equipment. Anybody can buy a borewelder but highly qualified, experienced mobile machinists with every tool needed on the truck are few and far between.

Pile Buck
10-01-2006, 10:02 PM
JT, Who the hells this guy workin for? Not doubtin ya but 500K per year? Thats $137.00 an hour, 10 hours a day, 7 days a week ,for 365 days w/o a day off! This is one tough dude! :eek: I met a nice young guy that has the biggest Miller air-welder I ever saw, (IR compressor and Deutz diesel built right in) set smack in the middle of a brand new 14,000# welding rig, does line-boaring on heavy eqpt. , has the feeders etc, and the boys good, tho he can't hardly make the payments on his rig. Tell me who your pal is workin for, and I'll send that boy some help so he can take a day off! Hells-bells! Maybe I'll come too! I am a fantastic camp-cook!;)

Where in Az?
I think it was 2001; I was at the Port of LA, building a couple bridges. I knew 3 or 4 pile bucks who were working for Traylor Bros. Around the corner from us driving piles for the first container ship dock on the new berth 400 island. I heard later that these guys worked 5,000-hours that year! :eek:

NOS
10-01-2006, 10:17 PM
I understand that. I charge $150 an hour for me and a helper. What you guys do is way out there compared to my little operation. Thats why I asked. In reality? I wouldn't be intrested as I don 't wanna be "the ***** in the kitchen" anyway, & my "rig" wouldn't get on the property. Paid-for has a nice "ring" to it. Still tho, what I said about the nice young man is true! So...whos yer Pal workin for?,,,and what part of AZ? Shoot me a PM and maybe we can hook this guy up? ....or not.

JTMcCracken
10-01-2006, 11:52 PM
Surely you're kidding?

I know the man has no intention to give his hard earned work away. And I garantee I don't intend to give his work away for him. Or his customer list.
Do you really think it works that way? A guy that's worked like a dog building a very successful business is going to give his work away to a guy that can't pick up enough to pay for his stuff?

Not in America.


JTMcC.

coalsmoke
10-02-2006, 12:30 AM
Surely you're kidding?

I know the man has no intention to give his hard earned work away. And I garantee I don't intend to give his work away for him. Or his customer list.
Do you really think it works that way? A guy that's worked like a dog building a very successful business is going to give his work away to a guy that can't pick up enough to pay for his stuff?

Not in America.


JTMcC.

No kidding. I'm on the bottom end, starting out building the business, and it is rough some months. Sure it gets better every month I hang in there, but sorry, I wouldn't go through all this just to give away some of the gravy.




...Bottom line is that if I was to want to weld heavy equipment, but retain the ability to work in the oil patch, I'd have a Lincoln 300 amp diesel with a wire feed module (my second choice would be a Vantage 400) on a late model one ton Dodge/Cummins/6 speed (because I'm partial to them) or, if I could tolerate the engines they use (and I can't), a Ford F-450/550, 4X4, and an LN-25 with a Lincoln gun for flux core plus a Tweco Spray Master gun for dual shield. Put an easily removable air compressor on the back and away you go, not much in those two areas of work you can't deal with efficiently.
I live in a rural part of Northern Arizona and our power is out quite a few times in the course of a year, that makes a Vantage pretty appealing as it would run the water well and the house easily during outages. But still, in the end, I'm pretty partial to Lincoln DC power. I might just buy a Vantage as a backup and as outage power for the shack tho: plus they look so nice with that ss case

John, thanks. That post of yours pretty much summarizes what I have been wondering / tossing around as far as ideas go. I originally figured that I'd find a used SAM 400 and have the trailblazer for the auxiliary power, but much of that is redundant on a rig, and puts a bunch of extra weight on the truck, plus, it doesn't make much sense running two engines at the same time, three if I was arc gouging at night with flood lights on (SAM, TB302 and Air Compressor) :rolleyes: There goes a chunk of the profit margin. If you get the opportunity to run a Vantage or you end up buying one, I'd love to hear your revised opinion of it's capabilities (if its is any different than your current thoughts), as you'd be able give a good comparison with the Lincoln DC units with regards to things like the downhill pipe mode.

Anyways, thanks again. The input and advice is appreciated.

NOS
10-02-2006, 12:43 AM
You have alot to learn about America son!
Wasn't askin you to give up anything that would hurt you or yer pal! Ya ain't foolish enough to think yer Pal is the only one that knows who hes workin for are ya? At 500K's a year, I expect that some meatball from Arizona with too many bills wouldn't be a threat. So sorry some of ya hi-rollers ain't willin ta help a guy thats havin a hard time., & are so threatened by him or some "farmer" like me ,to not help a guy. YOU have nothing I want, and you and yer Pal wouldn't make it much past my gate. I wasn't askin for me! I kicked the worlds *** a long time ago! Take yer pals 500K job and shove it! I personally ain't belivein a second of it anyway. I was tryin ta be nice when I gave ya the numbers and not insult ya. Yer knowlage of heavy welding is impressive for sure, but yer knowlage of America is little. Yer a kid...remember? Ya have alot to learn mister! Ya don't even have the ***** ta tell what part of Arizona yer in! Sure ya ain't related to "you know who"? Have a day sir!

edit; I really thought you guys were better than this., Guess talks cheap.

coalsmoke
10-02-2006, 12:57 AM
You have alot to learn about America son!
Wasn't askin you to give up anything that would hurt you or yer pal! Ya ain't foolish enough to think yer Pal is the only one that knows who hes workin for are ya? At 500K's a year, I expect that some meatball from Arizona with too many bills wouldn't be a threat. So sorry some of ya hi-rollers ain't willin ta help a guy thats havin a hard time., & are so threatened by him or some "farmer" like me ,to not help a guy. YOU have nothing I want, and you and yer Pal wouldn't make it much past my gate. I wasn't askin for me! I kicked the worlds *** a long time ago! Take yer pals 500K job and shove it! I personally ain't belivein a second of it anyway. I was tryin ta be nice when I gave ya the numbers and not insult ya. Yer knowlage of heavy welding is impressive for sure, but yer knowlage of America is little. Yer a kid...remember? Ya have alot to learn mister! Ya don't even have the ***** ta tell what part of Arizona yer in! Sure ya ain't related to "you know who"? Have a day sir!

Wow, a little uncalled for, regardless of who it was meant for. I thought just a couple days ago you were turning over a new leaf, mending bridges and stuff.

NOS
10-02-2006, 02:43 AM
Mending bridges? Sorry ya took it that way. About the last thing I would want to do is be "buddys" with some of the most insecure selfish men I've ever had anything to do with. I will however continue to try & help others when I can, and try to ignore those that could, but won't.

joebass
10-02-2006, 08:35 AM
NOS, have you ever been to counseling? Sounds like you might have a bit anger problem and a few insecurities.

JTMcCracken
10-02-2006, 05:31 PM
If you get the opportunity to run a Vantage or you end up buying one, I'd love to hear your revised opinion of it's capabilities
.


I have run one, I posted my take on it a page or two back. A friend of mine had one brought in for a demo. he ended up buying a new Classic 300D/Kubota.

JTMcC.

JTMcCracken
10-02-2006, 06:59 PM
You have alot to learn about America son!
Wasn't askin you to give up anything that would hurt you or yer pal! Ya ain't foolish enough to think yer Pal is the only one that knows who hes workin for are ya? At 500K's a year, I expect that some meatball from Arizona with too many bills wouldn't be a threat. So sorry some of ya hi-rollers ain't willin ta help a guy thats havin a hard time., & are so threatened by him or some "farmer" like me ,to not help a guy. YOU have nothing I want, and you and yer Pal wouldn't make it much past my gate. I wasn't askin for me! I kicked the worlds *** a long time ago! Take yer pals 500K job and shove it! I personally ain't belivein a second of it anyway. I was tryin ta be nice when I gave ya the numbers and not insult ya. Yer knowlage of heavy welding is impressive for sure, but yer knowlage of America is little. Yer a kid...remember? Ya have alot to learn mister! Ya don't even have the ***** ta tell what part of Arizona yer in! Sure ya ain't related to "you know who"? Have a day sir!

edit; I really thought you guys were better than this., Guess talks cheap.



You either have a mental health problem, a drug problem, a drinking problem, or an undiagnosed problem, either way you have major problems.
I know quite a few people that know you. I know the welding inspector that you went to see back when you were trying to get a certification of some type, remember the practice coupons you took to him? I know what advise he gave you, that you should enroll in a community college course in Henderson, NV and learn the basics of welding. I go a lot of places you go, and I buy a lot of stuff at places you buy stuff, I hear about you quite often, and I haven't heard anything good yet.
As far as telling some guy you've never met and know nothing about, on the interweb, that he has no ***** is a pure d stupid move on your part. I will run into you sometime, somewhere. And to say I have no ***** because I won't say where I am in Arizona, you bloody idiot, I have more contact information on the web than most, my address, my email address and several of my phone numbers. If that's not enought for you, then feel free to send me an email, I'll gladly give you directions to my house so you can drive on over and tell me I have no ***** in person like a man, not spouting crap on the internet like a little girl. I look forward to meeting you in person.
Just as an aside, weren't you telling people on the internet a couple of years ago that you were a truck driver?? Maybe that was another NOS from Vegas. How do you go from professional truck driver to professional welder in a year?
Anyway, give me a call, I'll tell you exactly where I''ll be, and when I'll be there. Every day if need be.


John T. McCracken, not using a cute little internet handle like "NOS", actually using his real name.

on edit: Do you remember the additional advise that welding inspector gave you? That you come out on the job he was inspecting the next day? And see how these code welds were actually made in the field? That was one of my jobs, he UT'd 16 moment frame connection full pen welds (no repairs that day), and had quite a bit to say about you and your abilities. I galadly kept this information to myself for over a year, but your rant means it probably should be made public.

Pile Buck
10-02-2006, 07:05 PM
Ouch!!!!!!

joebass
10-02-2006, 07:31 PM
HAHAHA, jackoff NOS got owned, I had a feeling he was full of it.

JTMcCracken
10-02-2006, 07:52 PM
You have alot to learn about America son!




Be carefull using that term "son", it means something to many people. You are not my Dad, my Dad died about a year and a half ago, 25 years active duty, 10th SF, then USAF, a man among men.
You my man are not even close to "My Dad".
You just can't imagine how much I look foreward to the day I run into you in person.

And I will.

John Tom McCracken

Pile Buck
10-02-2006, 07:53 PM
HAHAHA, jackoff NOS got owned, I had a feeling he was full of it.

Well I must be getting soft in my old age! I kind of feel sorry for ol NOS! Soon as I read his post I knew he was playing with fire. One should be very careful about drawing lines in the sand. People like JT will definitely step over it and grab you by the throat! ;)

NOS
10-02-2006, 11:45 PM
Never insulted yer Dad, and never would.
I insulted you & then said that I was wrong, and begged ya to forgive me right here.
This time I called ya selfish and insecure. cause ya won't help a guy when ya know ya could. Simple as that. Wanna mop the floor with my ***?.....heres the drill, IF ya whip me, you loose cause yer just a BIG guy that whipped a little guy! IF I whip you,,,,yer just a BIG guy that got whipped buy a little guy! Either way,,,you loose! Personally? I'd rather just let you be the winner. I've had all the fightin I need. 1/4 Cav. 1st. ID. I never insulted yer Dad! It was you I insulted, and I'm done apologizin to ya. Tell David he needs to start lookin for another job tho if ya wanna keep persueing this. Leave me and mine alone is the best advice yer gonna get all year. Ya gonna ruin me in Kingman? Theres nothin there to ruin me from! Unless yer welding for FNF, Bill F., or Kalamazoo, so go for it! Thats why WE work in Vegas! Remember? ( guess it could be minneral parks mine?) To bad ya didn't take up the offer for lunch when I invited Mac and you. Ya coulda met me face to face then tho, but as usual, Mac didn't respond, and you Sir ,didn't either! Offered ya'll work too!,,,,but don't remember any of ya returning the favor when I was slack! Wanna try it again? or do ya just wanna fight? We could do both! That would be GREAT! :D ... Say when and where right here and I'll be there. Lets dance! Were gonna make the 6:00 news in Kingman? :eek: (lets see..can't call him "son" casuse that pisses him off...can't call him, "boy" cause that would be worse....I know,,,just call him JT! Thats good, I'll just call him "JT"! Maybe he won't be mad at me anymore and wanna fight?;)

Nah!...Hes still gonna wanna fight ya. Stay frosty Rob!...always do,,,they think yer nuts Rob!!!!,,,,,,well......maybe they are right, but it ain't worth a killin over a computer game, and neither one of us will back down. He wins!.....now shut up and get back in my pocket!

Joebass? ya jumped the wrong train. Hope ya learned somethin from this.
Pile Buck? I'm crushed! Really!
To the rest of ya? "Have a day"!...(thats a quote from a guy I respect, that wants ta kick my ***).

KB Fabrications
10-03-2006, 12:03 AM
Never insulted yer Dad, and never would.
I insulted you & then said that I was wrong, and begged ya to forgive me right here.
This time I called ya selfish and insecure. cause ya won't help a guy when ya know ya could. Simple as that. Wanna mop the floor with my ***?.....heres the drill, IF ya whip me, you loose cause yer just a BIG guy that whipped a little guy! IF I whip you,,,,yer just a BIG guy that got whipped buy a little guy! Either way,,,you loose! Personally? I'd rather just let you be the winner. I've had all the fightin I need. 1/4 Cav. 1st. ID. I never insulted yer Dad! It was you I insulted, and I'm done apologizin to ya. Tell David he needs to start lookin for another job tho if ya wanna keep persueing this. Leave me and mine alone is the best advice yer gonna get all year. Ya gonna ruin me in Kingman? Theres nothin there to ruin me from! Unless yer welding for FNF, Bill F., or Kalamazoo, so go for it! Thats why WE work in Vegas! Remember? ( guess it could be minneral parks mine?) To bad ya didn't take up the offer for lunch when I invited Mac and you. Ya coulda met me face to face then tho, but as usual, Mac didn't respond, and you Sir ,didn't either! Offered ya'll work too!,,,,but don't remember any of ya returning the favor when I was slack! Wanna try it again? or do ya just wanna fight? We could do both! That would be GREAT! :D ... Say when and where right here and I'll be there. Lets dance! Were gonna make the 6:00 news in Kingman? :eek: (lets see..can't call him "son" casuse that pisses him off...can't call him, "boy" cause that would be worse....I know,,,just call him JT! Thats good, I'll just call him "JT"! Maybe he won't be mad at me anymore and wanna fight?;)

Nah!...Hes still gonna wanna fight ya. Stay frosty Rob!...always do,,,they think yer nuts Rob!!!!,,,,,,well......maybe they are right, but it ain't worth a killin over a computer game, and neither one of us will back down. He wins!.....now shut up and get back in my pocket!

Joebass? ya jumped the wrong train. Hope ya learned somethin from this.
Pile Buck? I'm crushed! Really!
To the rest of ya? "Have a day"!...(thats a quote from a guy I respect, that wants ta kick my ***).
OK, this has to be some kind of joke huh?:confused: Oh wait a minute, I get it now. This is the definition of DUMBA$$.:eek: :rolleyes: :D

joebass
10-03-2006, 12:19 AM
The only thing I learned from you in this thread is that you're full of it.

Pile Buck
10-03-2006, 07:49 AM
Pile Buck? I'm crushed! Really!

Well Rob, sorry you feel that way!

I treat these boards just like real life. In real life I try extremely hard to never say anything behind someoneís back that I wouldnít say to their face. On these boards I donít type anything I wouldnít say to their face.

I donít know your background, but Iím fairly confident youíre not use to dealing with the mentality of a handful of the people on these boards. I knew the instant I read your post to JT you had bitten off more than you could chew. Iíve dealt with hundreds of people like JT, these people you do not push! **** your lucky if you can lead them, but pushing is totally out of the question! When I was running work, I looked for this type of person. I pointed them in the direction I wanted them to go, and dropped their leash!

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you brought it upon your self!

coalsmoke
10-03-2006, 06:05 PM
I have run one, I posted my take on it a page or two back. A friend of mine had one brought in for a demo. he ended up buying a new Classic 300D/Kubota.

JTMcC.

Sorry JT, I must have turned my brain off for that post of mine:o . Thanks again.


I've run a Vantage 400, the ac is definitly noticable to me but I've driven SA-200's and Classics for many years. I think if you took a pure-d dc SA-200 as one extreme, and a standard rectified ac engine driven machine as the other end, the Vantages would fall roughtly 3/4's of the way toward the real deal dc machine (to me). I do know there are pipeliners (old timers) that have run old SA-200's for decades that are happy with their Vantages. I've never owned any chopper machine but I've driven a lot of them and they are a large step ahead of any rectified ac machine.
The arc force (or whatever they call it) on the Vantage I ran gave a really wide range of adjustment, and it for sure makes a large difference in the arc. They are also a lot cheaper than a generator.

NOS
10-03-2006, 07:35 PM
Pile Buck,,,that seems to be how I do things. I bring a world of hurt on myself.
I kinda doubt that ya could get a "leash" on JT tho. I ran a few like him as well a time or two. (Army) Yer right tho,,, I like this JT guy! Just hope he doesn't kill me.

Heres an offer to ya JT, cause lookin over my shoulder ain't 1 of my best things to be doing. I'm good at it mind ya, but it really sucks.

Shoot me a PM with yer phone # and I'll call ya. (My # is on the trucks, or I'll send ya a PM with it. Whichever ya want)

We can talk man to man

IF ya will let me,,,I'll drive to you and let ya look at my welds on my rig. That way you can decide what ya think of my welding. (providing ya don't hit me)

Then you can report back here to thease guys what ya saw, and what ya really think about me & my welds 1st. hand. You seem like a guy that tells the truth. Thats all I ask.

Deal?

I hope we can be gentle? (for lack of a better word I can't spell)
Otherwise be advised that the only "war" I ever lost was nam, and thats only cause I didn't get killed,and they made us quit. I do not quit commin back til I win! If yer not prepared to deal with me on my terms or kill me,,,ya best leave me alone. This is NOT a threat! It's a plea, and a promice. Ya scared the crap outa me with that last long offer to wait for me especially when I wouldn't know ya from Adam. I'm NOT crazy contrarry to popular belief, but I'm workin on it. I'm sure sorry yer Dad is gone! Mine passed this year, and Mom 2 years prior, but no matter. I'd really like to meet ya face to face. Bet we have more in common than ya might think.

Otherwise it's gonna be a long day for us both. Toughenuf for ya?

To the rest of ya,,,I'm outa here!
...thank God he's gone. .....really? ya mean we can go now?....shut-up ya little prick and get back in my pocket!...crazy? Not me :rolleyes: ,,,, but it's gettin harder to keep you outa my head every day so don't push it. :mad:

Bye Guys! .... Ya'll be cool! JT?.....it's yer call how ya wanna deal with this. I'll check to see the PM, but promice this old rooster wont terrorise this hen-yard any more. I hope ya'll have a great day. C-ya!

coalsmoke
10-04-2006, 12:45 PM
Back to welding......

Is anyone out there buying the new classics with the gas motor option? I was told that they are a popular northern climate choice, because they'll start easier than the diesel, but I'm northernish, and have visited more northern but still haven't seen any of the new gassers myself. Something tells me it might have something to do with fuel prices, among other things;) I just thought it was interesting that there was enough of a perceived market for Lincoln to have a gas engine option.

J Hall
10-04-2006, 02:57 PM
Coalsmoke,
You seem to be well versed in small diesels, I am considering switching to a Vantage, but now they have the choice between Duetz and Kubota.
What is your preference, and why?

coalsmoke
10-04-2006, 03:58 PM
Jeff, both name brands are good in my books, but Kubota has always been the king of durability. A lot of people don't care much for hte Kubota because it's blatantly not a North American sounding name, but generally speaking, you just can't kill these little things. However, Ventureline has just recently informed me that the Kubota's have switched to an electronic governing system, which cannot be easily tampered with. As a result, it is apprently not easy to set them up for the higher altitudes. I'm also not sure if the new electronic Kubota is more sensitive to pressure variation Ie. altitude change. The old ones was noticable at a couple thousand feet (say 3000' above sea level), but nothing to write home about. Maybe the new ones are different. If I were anywhere in the bottom half of the world, I'd still choose a Kubota. Their design is so tried and true it has become much like the Cummins 5.9. Even when they're almost dead, you still get a thousand more hours out of them. None of this coming out in the morning to find that the Kubota simply quit working. However, if you anticipate some higher elevation work, I'd defer to Ventureline's "more current" knowledge and go with the Duetz, especially because it also comes with another 2HP right out of the box. One of the older Kubota engines around here is a late 60's early 70's vintige, little 2 cylinder, ~18hp, and the thing must be getting close to having between 15,000 - 20,000 hours on it. Everything still works as it should. One caution is that parts are not cheap, but you usually only have to buy them once, if at all, in your lifetime. One last thought about the Kubota, they do very well in a powersource environment like this where they are at a higher RPM. They generally lack the torque on the low end, down below 800rpm, in the middle they're about the same as any other high-quality diesel, but up above 1500rpm there's nothing stopping them. I'm not sure why, but I have a hunch it has something to do with the Kubota being a lighter engineered engine. Not to say its lighter duty, just physically lighter in weight. It takes less HP and torque to keep an engine with lighter internals up to speed, which also means a little better overall efficiency.

What bother's me about both these engines is not the engines themselves, just that Lincoln put them in a machine capable of 400amps. If someone asked me what HP range I'd like to see in a 400 amp capable welder, it would be in the 28hp range, not the 22-24hp. It doesn't sound like much, but it can be the difference to whether or not your little engine is working within its acceptable limits or is working too hard and shortening its life span. 22hp is about right for 300amps IMO. That said, that little 2cyl Kubota I was talking about has been overworked most of its life, so, I suspect to keep weight down, Lincoln views it as an acceptable loss as the engine will still probably outlive everything else inside of the box.

I'm considering the Vantage 400, which now has the Perkins, which, if they are still what they were a few years ago is another great little engine. Also one of the smoother engines out there IMO, and will be my next choice. It is one fo the few small engines that is derated, not strectched to meet its demand. The 404 Perkins engine platform is capable of upwards of 50HP, and its a properly balanced engine (not internally balanced to 'close enough' specs). These newer Perkins are no longer the choppy, noisy little bug-like engines that they were 20 years ago, and, if it wasn't for the weight, I think they would have been an option in the Vantage 300 as well. Also, I think (but don't quote me on this) that the oil drain intervals on the perkins are at 500hours, where as the Kubota is every 200 hours. Not a big expense, more of a pain than anything. I'm not sure but I believe the Duetz is every 500hours as well. They even make a little turbocharged version on this 404 platform. I don't have the experience with these newer perkins to say just how long they last, and I won't go as far out on a limb to say that they would last as long as a Kubota, but, I will say that they use good components, and are rated to maintain spec for at least 6000hours, which means you'll probably get 10,000 out of it before it causes a person any serious headaches. I suspect that if it wasn't for the new tier2 emmisions standards, Perkins would have stayed with the simpler 100 series platform engine that has long since earned its respect out in the field.

coalsmoke
10-04-2006, 04:31 PM
Ok, I just got off the horn with one of my trusted diesel engine guys, asking him what's up with the Kubotas and lack of altitude adjustment, and why now. He says that its not just the Kubota, but because of these new emmisions requirements, all of the diesel engine manufactures need to make their engines safegaurded against anyone tampering with the emmisions compliant settings (federal law). So, you can't just go and turn back the pump anymore, you now have to break a lead seal to get into the new Kubota fuel adjustments, which will then void your warranty. So, it can be done, its just less than legal and generally not advisable. He was quick to point out that this affects all small diesel engines, not just the Kubota. He said that he has customers using the Kubota V platform up to elevations of 10,000', and that the engiens were somewhat oversized because of teh elevation difference. I pulled out some of my engineering texts, and for an engine like the Kubota inline 4, and informally (ie nobody cut off my boys if this isn't exact) that the Kubota would only be making about 18.5HP at 5000'. Enough to run 300amps @30V worth, but I doubt it would output a full 400A as advertised by Lincoln. If anyone has a loadbank, Vantage 300 with the Kubota, and lives above 5000 feet, you could try this for us and see just what the realistic sustained output of this unit.

J Hall
10-04-2006, 06:54 PM
Thanks,
I was considering the Vantage 400 but it is a little more weight, and that was what I was trying to get rid of when I took my SAM- 400 off, but I would like a little more capcity than the Ranger will give. So I have some thinking to do:eek:

coalsmoke
10-04-2006, 07:03 PM
Thanks,
I was considering the Vantage 400 but it is a little more weight, and that was what I was trying to get rid of when I took my SAM- 400 off, but I would like a little more capcity than the Ranger will give. So I have some thinking to do:eek:

I hear you. I bet you really knew when you had that SAM on the truck. As far as the Vantages go, looking purely at the numbers, the extra 200lbs to step up to a V400 looks to be well worth it.

JTMcCracken
10-04-2006, 07:03 PM
Coalsmoke,
You seem to be well versed in small diesels, I am considering switching to a Vantage, but now they have the choice between Duetz and Kubota.
What is your preference, and why?


My name-is-not-Coalsmoke, but, I know a lincoln engine drive guy and a Lincoln engine drive generator guy that I talk to a couple of times per year so I'll throw in my two bits. The Lincoln guy told me that Lincoln was worried about overwhealming Kubota with engine orders and decided it was a good idea to have another supplier on line, as well as offering two engine choices.
The recent off road emission regulations have driven the engine choices for welding machines.
I've had exceptional service out of Deutz diesels for years. Kubota also has a sterling reputation. I'd pick the engine with the most power, but I'd be happy with either.
I consider electronic governers a gift from above, I wish my Classic II had such a wonderfull thing.

Just my opinion.

John

Irwelder
10-04-2006, 10:27 PM
Hi all. I own a 300D with a Kubota and like it fine. I decided to go with the Kubota after seeing guys with the Red D Arc machines with the Kobota engines. They all said how reliable the engine was and a couple guys had over 10,000 hrs on theirs with little or no trouble. Although I beleieve those are different models than what are currently available from Lincoln the reliability should still be there.:)
That said, I also ran a Classic II Deutz for a couple of years and really liked it. I felt that it was one of the most fuel efficient engines around. Used to forget to fill it up sometimes because it could go so long between fuelings. Also coudn't beat the way it welded.

ventureline
10-04-2006, 11:09 PM
I've loaded a Vantage 300 Kubota at 400 amps,,,, it kills the engine, the Vantage 300 Duetz stumbles a little but picks up immediatly.
The Vantage 300 Kubota bareley runs 1/4" tends to have a somewhat ropey even after breakin, the Duetz welds 1/4" smooth, but takes much longer to break the engine in.

The Vantage Kubota shakes the Sh*t out of the wrap arond covers, The Duetz while louder, does not vibrate the covers as much

The Vantage 400 still has commnication issues between the engine protection board and main control board. Lots of power, bit of a fuel gobbler.The V300 lineup does not use the same system


Vantage 500 has no reported problems

This all at 3500-4500 ft elevation as reported by various customers

coalsmoke
10-04-2006, 11:20 PM
I've loaded a Vantage 300 Kubota at 400 amps,,,, it kills the engine, the Vantage 300 Duetz stumbles a little but picks up immediatly.
The Vantage 300 Kubota bareley runs 1/4" tends to have a somewhat ropey even after breakin, the Duetz welds 1/4" smooth, but takes much longer to break the engine in.

The Vantage Kubota shakes the Sh*t out of the wrap arond covers, The Duetz while louder, does not vibrate the covers as much

The Vantage 400 still has commnication issues between the engine protection board and main control board. Lots of power, bit of a fuel gobbler.The V300 lineup does not use the same system


Vantage 500 has no reported problems

This all at 3500-4500 ft elevation as reported by various customers

Out of shear curiosity, what kind of problems?

ventureline
10-04-2006, 11:37 PM
Vantage 500 has a "0" failture rate, though there is perhaps only 50 or so in Alberta, compared with a thousand Vantage 300/400's

coalsmoke
10-05-2006, 12:15 AM
Vantage 500 has a "0" failture rate, though there is perhaps only 50 or so in Alberta, compared with a thousand Vantage 300/400's

Sorry, I was asking about the issues you alluded to when you said.


The Vantage 400 still has commnication issues between the engine protection board and main control board.

Thanks

J Hall
10-08-2006, 11:18 AM
What bother's me about both these engines is not the engines themselves, just that Lincoln put them in a machine capable of 400amps. If someone asked me what HP range I'd like to see in a 400 amp capable welder, it would be in the 28hp range, not the 22-24hp.

More horsepower is always better, but at least they didn't use a 3 cylinder engine.
The pro 300 is also 22hp, but the duty cycle is less.
I was curious about the pro 300, but the 3cyl and duty cycle turned me off.

I ordered a Vantage 300, we will see how it does.

Sberry
10-08-2006, 12:19 PM
Whats wrong with the 3 cyl?

J Hall
10-08-2006, 12:29 PM
Whats wrong with the 3 cyl?

I am sure someone will come upand bite me, but I have never seen a three cyl that didn't shake.

calweld
10-08-2006, 12:41 PM
I am sure someone will come upand bite me, but I have never seen a three cyl that didn't shake.

Heyyyy. . .

I'm out of town right now, borrowed a computer, saw this, couldn't help commenting here. My commanders both have the 3 cylinder deutz, idle at 1400 rpm, they do shake a little. At 1800 rpm working speed, I don't notice any vibration.

coalsmoke
10-08-2006, 01:04 PM
I am sure someone will come upand bite me, but I have never seen a three cyl that didn't shake.

Yup, you got it. A 3cyl is inherently unbalanced. Now, not to say its a piece of junk, just that it has to work harder to deliver the same smooth performance. They can be and often are balanced for optimal rpm ranges right from the factory (I believe Kubota does do this), but, as a result offer a smaller rpm spectrum in which they effectively deliever that smooth and efficient power. Keep in mind, we're talking about inefficiencies between the 3 cyl and 4 cyl that I would hazard are in the range of 10% of each other, so IMHO this is no end of the world news. I strongly suspect that this is one of the reasons (aside from Tier II emmisions) that Perkins replaced the older 3 cyls with a 4 cyl engine platform. I think it is fair to say that the more interrelated technology gets crammed in these machines, the greater the benefit of having a machine that doesn't shake itself to pieces at idle.

J Hall
10-08-2006, 02:46 PM
I am sure someone will come upand bite me, but I have never seen a three cyl that didn't shake



Heyyyy. . .

I'm out of town right now, borrowed a computer, saw this, couldn't help commenting here. My commanders both have the 3 cylinder deutz, idle at 1400 rpm, they do shake a little. At 1800 rpm working speed, I don't notice any vibration.

See? I knew it:D

JTMcCracken
10-08-2006, 04:13 PM
I guess they do shake a lot, if you're stuck in the 70's, or have never actually used one and live in the world of theory.
But if you actually own or use a modern 3 cylinder diesel, you'll know that they are very smooth running machines. As smooth as the 4 cyl welding machines. I don't know of anyone with one that shakes. If they did people would complain as loud as they did on the old Perkins Lincoln used for a while over 20 years ago, and not buy them. Especially people who live with their welding machine on the back of their truck.
Just like the Mercedes 5 cylinder in my brothers car, smooth, powerfull and efficient.
The air/oil cooled machines are louder because of the lack of a water jacket to absorb engine noise, but they are as smooth as any engine used in a welding machine today.


JTMcC.

J Hall
10-08-2006, 04:19 PM
I guess they do shake a lot, if you're stuck in the 70's.
But if you actually own or use a modern 3 cylinder diesel, you'll know that they are very smooth running machines. .


JTMcC.

That is true, I haven't been around a three cylinder in a long time. My judgement comes from the old Airpaks and some three cyl gensets that I was around.
And if you say the new ones run smooth, I don't doubt it for an instant.

JTMcCracken
10-08-2006, 04:32 PM
Yea but those old Airpaks were a 4 cylinder Deutz with one cylinder converted to an air compressor. They shook worse than the 3 cyl. SA-250's Lincoln made for a bit. I know people with old Airpaks and I can't stand to be in the same county when they're running.

JTMcC.

Sberry
10-08-2006, 04:49 PM
I think JT has it covered here and my experience is from old engines, so for what its worth, as I recall many 4 cyl diesel need a lot of additional counterweighting in the engine that a 3 doesnt need due to the firing sequence, etc,,, Seems to be a lot less lower engine parts in a 3 than a 4 and modern electronic engine controls have certainly improved things extensively, a 3 cyl should be the ticket in small engine. You can add another working cyl without a ton more parts.

J Hall
10-08-2006, 04:54 PM
Yea but those old Airpaks were a 4 cylinder Deutz with one cylinder converted to an air compressor. They shook worse than the 3 cyl. SA-250's Lincoln made for a bit. I know people with old Airpaks and I can't stand to be in the same county when they're running.

JTMcC.

The ones before that had a three cyl running a recip compressor and they were no party either. The nice thing about an old Airpak is you don't need a chopsaw, put your part in the vise, hold a hacksaw, and let it idle.

coalsmoke
10-08-2006, 05:18 PM
Well, don't know what I was smoking when I made the last post, but the straight 4 is not a balanced design. :o I was re-reading this page and it occured to me that there is a reason why the straight 4 design works better in smaller displacements. Anyways, it is unblanced because of the angular velocity differences on the crank:rolleyes: The straight three (conventionally) is inherently balanced on a rotational axis, but it does have some issues of its own. Anyways, I'll go slink off now. Got to fix the truck:rolleyes:

If anyone is really pissed off for my above mix-up and my sincerest apologies don't cut it, you can send the anthrax to:
Bushwacker Mobile Welding,
**** Cold,
Canada
1X1 O2O

J Hall
10-08-2006, 05:33 PM
I'd still rather have the Vantage than the Pro300;)

JTMcCracken
10-08-2006, 08:34 PM
I'd rather have one Vantage than five or even eighteen Pro300's.

JTMcC;)

stack o dime
10-08-2006, 09:00 PM
this is quite an interesting topic going here. I have the chance to buy an old sa-250 with the 3 cylinder perkind in it and was wondering if they are a good machine or not. do they really shake bad? more importantly how do they weld? as i havent got to test it out yet.

JTMcCracken
10-08-2006, 09:18 PM
this is quite an interesting topic going here. I have the chance to buy an old sa-250 with the 3 cylinder perkind in it and was wondering if they are a good machine or not. do they really shake bad? more importantly how do they weld? as i havent got to test it out yet.


They have a reputation for welding very nice but they'll shake your truck a lot.
The old timers I know say they are the best welding of the 250's.
I ran one for about 6 months once, it was sitting on the ground so I the vibration didn't bother me. I really liked the way it welded tho.

What year is it?


JTMcC.

Sberry
10-08-2006, 09:49 PM
Lets assume we took a 6 cyl engine, like a 292 or 300 straight 6, fixxed a head unloader and manifold for 1 cyl and run it on 5, make 1 an air pump, wonder how good it would run on 5? Hook an old car motor to an old generator and you got air and welding,, ha Be the type of thing for KOO on SFT.

J Hall
10-08-2006, 09:59 PM
Pile Buck has that 200. I think I see a project for him;)

Sberry
10-09-2006, 01:03 AM
Thats what I was thinking. Take the body off, disconnect the drive shaft from the rear end out of an old pickup, bolt that generator to the drive shaft right in place, throw it in about 3rd gear and drive that welder, something like someone would have rigged during the depression era. Rig a hitch on it so he can pull it with the tractor.

Pile Buck
10-09-2006, 09:02 AM
Geeezzzzzzzzzz you really think Ií am a North West redneck! :p

I would like to find an old 292, my dad had a 1964 3/4-ton Chevy with the 292 w/ 4-speed. Had 456ís gears! Talk about low-end torque. On flat ground you could take off in 3rd gear without to much finessing of the clutch. ;)

Pile Buck
10-09-2006, 09:38 AM
I got to thinking later; the PTO is out of the question! If the SAE 200 requires 1,500 RPMís, the PTO only turns 540-RPMís. Have to start watching the auctions for an old truck, I guess.

I have a Donkey I made years ago with a 4-cylinder engine, out of a Chevet I think, but it hasnít been turned over in about a hundred years. Probably froze solid! :rolleyes:

coalsmoke
10-09-2006, 12:11 PM
I got to thinking later; the PTO is out of the question! If the SAE 200 requires 1,500 RPMís, the PTO only turns 540-RPMís. Have to start watching the auctions for an old truck, I guess.

I have a Donkey I made years ago with a 4-cylinder engine, out of a Chevet I think, but it hasnít been turned over in about a hundred years. Probably froze solid! :rolleyes:

Don't you have a multi speed PTO. Ours has four ranges, from 540 up to 2800IIRC.

Pile Buck
10-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Don't you have a multi speed PTO. Ours has four ranges, from 540 up to 2800IIRC.

Nope! Itís an automatic; see the pedals in the upper right hand corner of this picture. At just about full RPM of the engine, develops 540-RPM to the PTO. And only 20-hp if I remember correctly. :confused:

JTMcCracken
10-09-2006, 12:40 PM
Nope! Itís an automatic; see the pedals in the upper right hand corner of this picture. At just about full RPM of the engine, develops 540-RPM to the PTO. And only 20-hp if I remember correctly. :confused:


A shaft, a couple of bearings, a couple of sheaves, a couple of belts, and your turning the machine at what ever rpm you want.
But you already knew that.

JTMcC.

Pile Buck
10-09-2006, 12:43 PM
A shaft, a couple of bearings, a couple of sheaves, a couple of belts, and your turning the machine at what ever rpm you want.
But you already knew that.

JTMcC.
I have some right angle gearboxes that came out of Sea-Tac airport I should look at the ratio on them.

coalsmoke
10-09-2006, 01:09 PM
I wonder what the minimum torque is that you need to go into that unit. This of course leads to the question of whether you gear it up to 1500, will a third of your tractors 20hp PTO power be enough to power this unit. That would be roughly 2HP electric.

Sberry
10-10-2006, 11:57 AM
You wouldnt lose power gearing it up but it needs more than 2 hp thats for sure. It would need most of the poop the tractor has. I wish I could sketch, I would make a pic of the ultimate redneck welder. Like I said, strip the truck body off and mount it over the rearend, connect the drive shaft to it. 3rd or 4th gear and it would be about right plus you have a clutch disconnect.

coalsmoke
10-10-2006, 12:49 PM
You wouldnt lose power gearing it up but it needs more than 2 hp thats for sure. It would need most of the poop the tractor has. I wish I could sketch, I would make a pic of the ultimate redneck welder. Like I said, strip the truck body off and mount it over the rearend, connect the drive shaft to it. 3rd or 4th gear and it would be about right plus you have a clutch disconnect.

Torque is multiplied or divided depending on whether or not you gear down or up respectively.

Sberry
10-10-2006, 03:16 PM
Absolutely, you take the 540 from the tractor, run the engine at rated speed, gear it thru a jackshaft or gearbox to 1500 rpm out and you still have 20 hp, its just at a different speed.

coalsmoke
10-10-2006, 04:30 PM
Absolutely, you take the 540 from the tractor, run the engine at rated speed, gear it thru a jackshaft or gearbox to 1500 rpm out and you still have 20 hp, its just at a different speed.

Yep, but you and I both know that it is the rotational torque at the required RPM that will make or break this plan.

Sberry
10-11-2006, 09:22 PM
Somebody at some time made welding machines that hitched to the back of the tractor, it had a large pulley that went on the PTO, a couple belts and a generator with a smaller pulley, hooked right on the back of a tractor. Tractor engine had a govener already, it worked. Carl could do the same with belt and pulley if he wanted. But, if a guy was scrounging a used vintage pickup or car engine would work great, its not governed but it would have plenty of power in that rpm range to drive a machine like that.
I have been waiting around for an old air comp with blown engine. Mount it down and hook a tractor for the power supply, any tractor with enough power.

Manny
10-13-2006, 07:46 PM
Not a good plan to run full synthetics in a diesel engine. Delvac is good, though any good quality 15-40 will suffice.

Full synthetics are best in a gasoline powered engine only

Curious as to what your basis for this statement is? I work with diesels to pay the rent, Detroit Diesel specifically, and none of the engineers or other factory folks I've talked to have any problems with synthetics in diesels. Mobile Delvac is very good oil, but Mobile One is better by a long shot.

calweld
10-13-2006, 10:57 PM
Hey Coal . . .

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, this is intended more as constructive than criticisim, have you ever considered a career in politics or law????? I was just re-reading a few posts that were posted while I was gone, I think you have some real talent, if you were the PR man for Mr. Foley (our now ex-congressman who seems to like teenage boys:eek: :eek: ), he would have come out smelling like a rose, and probably be next in line for speaker of the house :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This was masterful, when you originally said

A 3cyl is inherently unbalanced

then just a few hours later said:

but the straight 4 is not a balanced design . . .The straight three (conventionally) is inherently balanced on a rotational axis,


Both times I'm sure you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about, even I had no idea what you were talking about, had to go out and start one of my machines when I came home to be sure they didn't vibrate, (it didn't) but both times you sure made a convincing case;) ;) .

As I'm sure you realize, we have some of the most flip-flop politicians in the world here in the Golden State, but even the most brazen here in California wouldn't have attempted to pull off what you did, and apparently successfully:p , most of them only deal with theoretical issues, you can actually take both sides of black and white issues. I really think your talents are being wasted on this board, there must be a "budding politician/lawyer" message board somewhere, you would really shine . . .:D :D

coalsmoke
10-13-2006, 11:41 PM
Hey Coal . . .

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, this is intended more as constructive than criticisim, have you ever considered a career in politics or law????? I was just re-reading a few posts that were posted while I was gone, I think you have some real talent, if you were the PR man for Mr. Foley (our now ex-congressman who seems to like teenage boys:eek: ), he would have come out smelling like a rose, and probably be next in line for speaker of the house :rolleyes:

This was masterful, when you originally said


then just a few hours later said:



Both times I'm sure you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about, even I had no idea what you were talking about, had to go out and start one of my machines when I came home to be sure they didn't vibrate, (it didn't) but both times you sure made a convincing case;) .

As I'm sure you realize, we have some of the most flip-flop politicians in the world here in the Golden State, but even the most brazen here in California wouldn't have attempted to pull off what you did, and apparently successfully:p , most of them only deal with theoretical issues, you can actually take both sides of black and white issues. I really think your talents are being wasted on this board, there must be a "budding politician/lawyer" message board somewhere, you would really shine . . .:D

Cal, I'm not sure if I should get up off the floor from laughing so hard or pretend I didn't read the post:cool: Funny you should mention law. I'm just a few months away from finishing a 5-year law related degree. It was my "switch into field" when I got out of mechanical engineering (no offence to engineers on this board, but man you guys have some amazingly boring jobs). Previously before university, I worked in an engine related shop (repairs and rebuilds), and generally know a bit about most mechanical things, which makes me more dangerous than most on here;) Sometimes I open my trap before making sure I remember or understand everything. And then sometimes a few hours after opening my trap, it occurs to me that I was way off base or I completely confused two concepts. However, you will notice, one thing I always do is leave my mistakes up on the board instead of covering them up (Mr. Clinton should have taken note). At the end of the day, I'm still determined on helping people, and the last thing I want is someone to read something I write and then not see the context of a later correction and take home really bad advice.

Earlier, when I was talking about the inherent balances of the 4 cylinder, I was thinking about what we learned with regards to the inline 6. The inline 4 is, as far as theory goes, is not a ‘natural’ design. One thing you'll find about people with training as engineers, whether it be retired, active or students, is that despite how much we want to believe that we know everything, we really just know the concepts and are good at learning the other 80% of the material surrounding a specific topic:o (Don't tell CFES {Canadian Federation of Engineering Students} that the cat is out of the bag:rolleyes: ) Anyways, thanks Cal for recognizing my natural talent. It makes me happy to know that someone cares;)

J Hall
10-13-2006, 11:45 PM
The Vantage showed up yesterday.

coalsmoke
10-13-2006, 11:50 PM
The Vantage showed up yesterday.

Hey, congratulations:) Have you put it through its paces? I had the opportunity to see one in person last Wednesday, very nice machine. I like how Lincoln used their heads and put all the service amenities on the one side:cool:

calweld
10-14-2006, 12:20 AM
Cal, I'm not sure if I should get up off the floor from laughing so hard
However, you will notice, one thing I always do is leave my mistakes up on the board instead of covering them up (Mr. Clinton should have taken note).
Anyways, thanks Cal for recognizing my natural talent. It makes me happy to know that someone cares;)

I hope you were laughing, that was the attitude I had when I wrote it, as far as Mr. Clinton goes, he's in a class by himself, you don't even want to be in the same sentence as him, be thankful you're not in the same country (that's a dig at Mr. Clinton, not you). Actually, Mr. Clinton is kind of harmless right now, it's Mrs. Clinton we have to worry about now:eek: :eek: Bill's got to worry about her too, but for different reasons I think :D :D

calweld
10-14-2006, 12:28 AM
The Vantage showed up yesterday.

So it will be replacing the 305G on your truck or in addition to it??

J Hall
10-14-2006, 07:06 AM
Hey, congratulations:) Have you put it through its paces? . I like how Lincoln used their heads and put all the service amenities on the one side:cool:

Not yet. It is still on the pallet. It seems like they put some thought into these machines.




So it will be replacing the 305G on your truck or in addition to it??

Replacing. I wanted a little more capacity and the Vantage seemed like it would fit the bill.
I am planning on building a new bed this winter, and I wanted to build it around a Vantage.

Pile Buck
10-14-2006, 07:46 AM
Hey Coal . . .

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, this is intended more as constructive than criticisim, have you ever considered a career in politics or law????? I was just re-reading a few posts that were posted while I was gone, I think you have some real talent, if you were the PR man for Mr. Foley (our now ex-congressman who seems to like teenage boys:eek: :eek: ), he would have come out smelling like a rose, and probably be next in line for speaker of the house :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This was masterful, when you originally said


then just a few hours later said:



Both times I'm sure you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about, even I had no idea what you were talking about, had to go out and start one of my machines when I came home to be sure they didn't vibrate, (it didn't) but both times you sure made a convincing case;) ;) .

As I'm sure you realize, we have some of the most flip-flop politicians in the world here in the Golden State, but even the most brazen here in California wouldn't have attempted to pull off what you did, and apparently successfully:p , most of them only deal with theoretical issues, you can actually take both sides of black and white issues. I really think your talents are being wasted on this board, there must be a "budding politician/lawyer" message board somewhere, you would really shine . . .:D :D

Well I spit coffee all over the monitor, ****, where is that windex? :D

J Hall
10-14-2006, 08:15 AM
Both times I'm sure you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about, even I had no idea what you were talking about,

I had to read that twice. My wife thought I lost my mind, I was laughing so hard.

Thanks for the stress relief:D

Lucky
11-17-2006, 03:12 PM
Back to the original question; Not sure if anyone mentioned this before but the 200D is rated at 40 volts while the 300D is rated at 32 volts. Does anybody favor the 200D because of the higher voltage?

ventureline
11-17-2006, 05:18 PM
Voltage is not a conern, The Pipeliners put out pure dc, whilst the 300D does not, there ya go. So it all depends on what your planning to do with it,ie, are ya going pipelining, or are you going structure.

J Hall
11-17-2006, 09:20 PM
Voltage is not a conern, The Pipeliners put out pure dc, whilst the 300D does not

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=16023

Classic 300D Perkins
Excellent Performance on Pipe
List Price:10408.00 (USD) *See Details
K1643-3 Classic 300D Perkins

The Classic 300D is popular throughout North America for pipeline, construction and maintenance welding. It features proven, simple and rugged construction, along with Lincolnís well-known pure DC generator

ventureline
11-17-2006, 09:41 PM
Thats what I meant, the 200D might be a little underpowered for running and capping pipe.

Though because of the AC exciter pumping ac voltage into a little unfiltered bridge to run the generator. There is a slight 1/4 wave AC signal entering the field on the generator, so true DC the 300D is not, thats why the 200D actually welds better than the 300D

coalsmoke
11-18-2006, 01:05 AM
Thats what I meant, the 200D might be a little underpowered for running and capping pipe.

Though because of the AC exciter pumping ac voltage into a little unfiltered bridge to run the generator. There is a slight 1/4 wave AC signal entering the field on the generator, so true DC the 300D is not, thats why the 200D actually welds better than the 300D

That said, from what I have seen, I see a dozen 300Ds for every 200 class machine. IMO, the 200s seem have fallen out of favour for the majority of people, at least that's what the declining numbers of the 200s out here would suggest. I'm suspect very few people require the additional quality of the 200, even in a pipeline field, and that it probably comes down to more of a want than a need.

JTMcCracken
11-23-2006, 10:50 AM
Thats what I meant, the 200D might be a little underpowered for running and capping pipe.



My goodness, there are thousands of pipeline welders out there who have been using those 200's (which are known as "pipeliners" for a reason) for just that since the rigs were pulled by horses or mules.
There are also thousands of mainline joints being welded with 300D's as we speak
And what exactly is "running pipe?"
Don't just make stuff up, there are people on the internet in every job imaginable, and they WILL correct you when you post stupid stuff in the field they work and live in.


JTMcC

ventureline
11-24-2006, 12:04 AM
The pipeliner 200, has a deisel or a gm 4banger, (not talking about the SA200) The gm 4 banger has been discontined

Not hard to jack the output of a SA200 up high enough to cap 1/4", very difficult to do on a Pipliner 200

Passing routes on a Pipliner 200 easy to do, capping is another matter, lots of SA200's in the field, not alot of Pipeliner 200's though, mostly SA200's and and classic 3D's

JT apparently you don't have a clue what a Lincoln Pipeliner 200 is, suprise, suprise.....

coalsmoke
11-24-2006, 03:30 AM
The pipeliner 200, has a deisel or a gm 4banger, (not talking about the SA200) The gm 4 banger has been discontined

Not hard to jack the output of a SA200 up high enough to cap 1/4", very difficult to do on a Pipliner 200

Passing routes on a Pipliner 200 easy to do, capping is another matter, lots of SA200's in the field, not alot of Pipeliner 200's though, mostly SA200's and and classic 3D's

JT apparently you don't have a clue what a Lincoln Pipeliner 200 is, suprise, suprise.....
Ventureline, I am beginning to wonder about your posts. Just how much current does a person need to cap pipe? I'm thinking if its 1/4" pipe, a pipewelder is probably going to be running 3/16 rod and if its 7018 which I suspect it usually is, then that would be anywhere from 180-250 amps (probably closer to the 250 considering the environment and nature of the work). That's still a ways off the machine's upper end of 300 amps. :confused:

ventureline
11-24-2006, 10:25 AM
Most capping is done with 1/4" rod, a "Lincoln Pipeline 200" just doesn't have the oomph to cap with 1/4" let alone weld with it, Simply kills the engine, The SA200's with a pto type temporary throttle lock has lots of power. however the point was that you can't over rev the Pipeliner series as they are electronicly controlled

The Classic 3D already has lots of torque to weld 1/4".

The Vantage 300 kubota practically kills the engine when you try to run 1/4", While the Vantage 300 Duetz purrs along

vicegrip
11-24-2006, 10:45 AM
The pipeliner 200, has a deisel or a gm 4banger, (not talking about the SA200) The gm 4 banger has been discontined

Not hard to jack the output of a SA200 up high enough to cap 1/4", very difficult to do on a Pipliner 200

Passing routes on a Pipliner 200 easy to do, capping is another matter, lots of SA200's in the field, not alot of Pipeliner 200's though, mostly SA200's and and classic 3D's

JT apparently you don't have a clue what a Lincoln Pipeliner 200 is, suprise, suprise.....

In this corner we have JT.........in the other corner we have Ventureline
http://usera.imagecave.com/vicegrip/swordsstory/refferee.jpg

The Winner will face 'Sluggo' (SBerry):cool: topic will be whether or not to twist the polarity knobs off your welder!:eek:

coalsmoke
11-24-2006, 02:32 PM
Most capping is done with 1/4", a "Lincoln Pipeline 200" just doesn't have the oomph to cap with 1/4" let alone weld with it, Simply kills the engine, The SA200's with a pto type temporary throttle lock has lots of power. however the point was that you can't over rev the Pipeliner series as they are electronicly controlled

The Classic 3D already has lots of torque to weld 1/4".

The Vantage 300 kubota practically kills the engine when you try to run 1/4", While the Vantage 300 Duetz purrs along

Thank you. I had no idea they'd be running such a large rod on a 1/4" pipe. I guess that's to help with deposition rates because the weld is downhill? I can definitely see how the pipeliner would be underpowered then. Still, aren't they used a lot in your neck of the woods for the smaller distribution stuff? Or, do guys not bother with the 200 and just go to the 300 level machines.

Vicegrip, you're always getting the best seat of the house aren't you. I bet you even have popcorn there too:D

Pile Buck
11-24-2006, 02:42 PM
Most capping is done with 1/4"

Are you saying Pipe liners run 1/4 -inch dia welding rod to make their cap pass? I doubt that very much!

I think Iíll wait until a true pipe liner shows up like JT, b-footn, and a couple others.
In my line of work if you had to run 1/4- inch rod, you might as well break out a wire feeder.;)

vicegrip
11-24-2006, 03:06 PM
Vicegrip, you're always getting the best seat of the house aren't you. I bet you even have popcorn there too:D

Actually I'm just gleaning information Because I get off on big-time stick {Love that Airco 400amps +}, I haven't a clue which guy here is on the money ,,,,,,,Hey , that means that by todays standards "I'd be just the man to decide the winner"..........Sad !:(

ventureline
11-24-2006, 08:58 PM
Maybe 30:1 3D's over Pipeliners, Vantage 300 Deuz is outselling the Kubotas at least 10:1

New problem has cropped up in the Vantage 300 Kubota, rad brackets are breaking away from the rad and have to be reattached, ie, resoldered

Ongoing problem with the Kohler CH22S in the Ranger 305G, left side valve rockers are comming loose ending up with bent push rods, might be an idea to check yours, just pull the valve cover and retorque the nuts.

coalsmoke
11-24-2006, 09:02 PM
Maybe 30:1 3D's over Pipeliners, Vantage 300 Deuz is outselling the Kubotas at least 10:1

New problem has cropped up in the Vantage 300 Kubota, rad brackets are breaking away from the rad and have to be reattached, ie, resoldered

Ongoing problem with the Kohler CH22S in the Ranger 305G, left side valve rockers are comming loose ending up with bent push rods, might be an idea to check yours, just pull the valve cover and retorque the nuts.

Thanks for the heads up. Will do.

spuddown
11-25-2006, 02:40 AM
[QUOTE=ventureline;

New problem has cropped up in the Vantage 300 Kubota, rad brackets are breaking away from the rad and have to be reattached, ie, resoldered

Ongoing problem with the Kohler CH22S in the Ranger 305G, left side valve rockers are comming loose ending up with bent push rods, might be an idea to check yours, just pull the valve cover and retorque the nuts.[/QUOTE]

How about the SAE 400 with a Perkins, any trouble there?

ventureline
11-25-2006, 10:36 AM
Basic configuration, lots of power, also lots of wieght as well, no problems as of yet, though do to the weight issues a better bet would be a Vantage 500 cummins, around 700 lbs lighter, the cost is within a couple of grand, and it is a multipurpose machine. Better bang for the buck...

spuddown
11-25-2006, 03:23 PM
Basic configuration, lots of power, also lots of wieght as well, no problems as of yet, though do to the weight issues a better bet would be a Vantage 500 cummins, around 700 lbs lighter, the cost is within a couple of grand, and it is a multipurpose machine. Better bang for the buck...

I was asking about the new Perkins. Our welders spend most of their lives on either a barge or on a dock, corrosion is the biggest problem we have with them. When one of our SAM 400's died a while back we bought a Severe Duty SAE 400 to combat the salt water environment. The machine had 9 hrs on it when it started missing , blowing white smoke, and slobbering fuel. Perkins sent me a new nozzle, after installation it quit missing but wouldn't clean up. I pulled it hard on an air arc trying to clean it up for 3 hrs, but it never did. It gained a quart and a half of oil though. I had to ship it off to Anchorage to the Perkins dealer. We have 5 other Lincolns with Perkins and they don't do anything but run. I know your supposed to pull these engines on the break in, which I was doing. Just wondering if this is common?

ventureline
11-25-2006, 09:37 PM
I almost think your way better off with a Miller 502 diesel. The unit is sealed from the elements thus the corrosion factor is reduced considerably.

As for the probems your having, we don't see any particular problem with the Perkins, other than a really low factory 130F temp thermostat. We usualy swap them out for a 165f if a customer wet stacks, ie, throws unburns fuel out the stack. This wet stacking usually goes away after the change..

spuddown
11-26-2006, 03:21 PM
I almost think your way better off with a Miller 502 diesel.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha ROFLMAO, Ahh man thats a good one. Hang on a minute, I have to clean the coffee of my screen, blow my nose and catch my breath!


All joking aside I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions about Perkins engines. I'll ask the dealer about the thermostat. I'll quit hijacking this thread. Thanks again.

Irwelder
11-26-2006, 08:46 PM
[QUOTE=ventureline;246677]

Not hard to jack the output of a SA200 up high enough to cap 1/4", very difficult to do on a Pipliner 200


QUOTE]

Hi all. I think that Ventureline is referring to using 1/4" 7018 to cap pipe while roll welding it. Using 1/4" 7018 for filling and capping on heavy wall piping such as 3"XXH and 6" 80 as well as many other sizes and schedules,increases production. But of course it produces more smoke and wear and tear on cables and other components. :( Many pipe fab welders ( in Alberta and B.C. anyways) want to be able to burn 1/4" 7018 especially when there is larger diameter piping to fabricate. Roll welding as many of the welds as possible is the way to go.:)

ventureline
11-26-2006, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE=ventureline;246677]

Not hard to jack the output of a SA200 up high enough to cap 1/4", very difficult to do on a Pipliner 200


QUOTE]

Hi all. I think that Ventureline is referring to using 1/4" 7018 to cap pipe while roll welding it. Using 1/4" 7018 for filling and capping on heavy wall piping such as 3"XXH and 6" 80 as well as many other sizes and schedules,increases production. But of course it produces more smoke and wear and tear on cables and other components. :( Many pipe fab welders ( in Alberta and B.C. anyways) want to be able to burn 1/4" 7018 especially when there is larger diameter piping to fabricate. Roll welding as many of the welds as possible is the way to go.:)


Quite popular here for the rig welders to ask for a machine to run 1/4" with, apparently not to popular in the states according to the posts. And yes, most are roll welding it, under alot of scattered tents on the modular yards and in the field.

coalsmoke
12-02-2006, 01:17 AM
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha ROFLMAO, Ahh man thats a good one. Hang on a minute, I have to clean the coffee of my screen, blow my nose and catch my breath!


All joking aside I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions about Perkins engines. I'll ask the dealer about the thermostat. I'll quit hijacking this thread. Thanks again.

Why is that such a joke to you:confused:


Now I understand why guys are running 1/4". Roll it, run it hot and fast, get more inches done in a day. Thanks Ventureline and IRwelder for filling in the gaps ;)

spuddown
12-03-2006, 05:36 PM
Why is that such a joke to you:confused;)

Compare the two side by side. The Severe Duty SAE 400 has stainless roof and doors Galvanized frame and radiator shroud. All copper wound with stainless brush holders. Sealed switches, The fuel tank, radiator and electronics are coated. All the fasteners are stainless. Its built for a salt water environment as opposed to what? A more sealed compartment? If I remember right I think miller started using stainless on their welders first. A few years ago I thought they offered an offshore model but cant find it anywhere on their website. A local welder has a miller on his truck with a stainless hood but they never used stainless bolts so its all rust streaked, the frame is rusted, basically it looks pretty shabby. I don't know for sure but I think the vantages might have the same problem.
I won't even go into what I think of Millers reliability.
However our new 400 is at the Perkins dealer right now. It had a broken push rod on the intake on the #4 cylinder, The rocker arm is mounted crooked on the #3 cylinder so the rocker arms weren't even pushing on the valve stem. They were pushing on the valve springs. This happened at 9 hrs on the machine. Must have been friday afternoon or monday morning at the Perkins factory.

coalsmoke
12-03-2006, 05:49 PM
I respect your opinion. I personally have had less blue reliability problems overall with blue machines than red, but I can't comment too much in regards to the large scale engine drives, just from the standpoint of my lack of long term experience with them. I think at the end of the day, with these new electronics, better sealing on the connections and circuit boards will pay off more and more for guys like you who are using them in highly corrosive environments. I am just not sure that Lincoln has looked at things past the cosmetic aspects, or maybe they try too hard to sound like they have everything together. It sort of sounds a bit like Lincoln put the stuff together on SAE 400 so it sounds great to a purchaser, but I wonder if its a case of Miller not having an issue with some of that same stuff and therefore not advertising about it. I can understand the stainless thing, that would get on my nerves in a real big hurry. Hurricunning on the Miller board got a new Pro300 SS package, I should ask him if they are using stainless fasteners on it. I think someone wsaid that for both machiens it was originally an issue, but I think they said that both the Vantage and the Pro are using stainless fasteners. Maybe someone can confirm this if they know.

ventureline
12-03-2006, 07:51 PM
Yes the fasteners are stainless self tappers in the Vantages. Naturally these bolts loosen off and drop out as the engines viibrate the covers. These covers are also non coated, so they look like crap within a couple of days in the elements

coalsmoke
12-03-2006, 09:04 PM
Yes the fasteners are stainless self tappers in the Vantages. Naturally these bolts loosen off and drop out as the engines viibrate the covers. These covers are also non coated, so they look like crap within a couple of days in the elements

See, this kind of stuff really gets me with Lincoln. A guy buys a $10,000+ machine and Lincoln can't use anti-vibration fasteners for an extra $15. What's worse, I bet Lincoln will sell you replacement but still the same faulty fasteners at a good mark-up. Also, I'd rather have a powdercoated cover than a stainless one that looks like junk. The stianless sounds great, and looks great, but for heaven's sake, its that showroom appearance thing again. Lincoln is really good at that it seems. Thanks Ventureline for that additional info. Its easy to read the product info and specs on the websites, but you personally see the machines after they have been through some real field trials. That is when you want to really look at a machine's worth IMO, where you can tell if it is a showroom beauty queen or a real workhorse with consideration given to its field environment.

J Hall
12-04-2006, 10:27 AM
Other than being dirty and a few grease spots, my Vantage looks like new, even though it is used around a sand washing plant and that will make anything look crappy.

SMTatham
12-04-2006, 01:19 PM
I have one of the earlier Vantage 300s; over 3,000 hours on it to date. I have yet to have a fastener "fall out" on the cover. A few loosened; yes, and were re-torqued. The stainless does NOT "look crappy after a couple days outside". My has been hauled from CO to CA and a lot of points in between; I work in a lot of aggregate pits also and have had limestone dust, red and otherwise stuck to it. Always washed up good. Maybe the Canadian models are different, eh??

coalsmoke
12-04-2006, 05:04 PM
Thanks guys for the added input, maybe Lincoln made some changes after a first batch or two, and it was those earlier ones that had covers that were looking ugly like Ventureline says.

ShieldArc
12-12-2006, 09:59 PM
Ive been welding 30+yrs and never had a Lincoln SA welder fail me on a job, ive had new millers fail. Believe me,,, no miller can weld as good as a Lincoln SA machine, ive tried them all. The last one I tried was a new pro300, what a joke, but it was sooo quiet!!!

calweld
12-12-2006, 11:35 PM
The last one I tried was a new pro300, what a joke, but it was sooo quiet!!!

Bet it was pretty, too!!!:p :p Looks good parked in front of the coffeeshop in the morning . . .

I like your sticker :D

ventureline
12-12-2006, 11:55 PM
I have one of the earlier Vantage 300s; over 3,000 hours on it to date. I have yet to have a fastener "fall out" on the cover. A few loosened; yes, and were re-torqued. The stainless does NOT "look crappy after a couple days outside". My has been hauled from CO to CA and a lot of points in between; I work in a lot of aggregate pits also and have had limestone dust, red and otherwise stuck to it. Always washed up good. Maybe the Canadian models are different, eh??

Don't no, might be the snow, though the uncoated stainless scratches easily, just saw one we put a positive air in 2 weeks ago, far away it looked ok, close up it was already surface scratched and had an odd color. So I sold him a protective cover to protect the finish and keep the water out..

OH, retorquing self tapping bolts, not likely, they'll strip before that happens, then you'll have to install a clip to the blown hole.

coalsmoke
12-13-2006, 12:25 AM
Ive been welding 30+yrs and never had a Lincoln SA welder fail me on a job, ive had new millers fail. Believe me,,, no miller can weld as good as a Lincoln SA machine, ive tried them all. The last one I tried was a new pro300, what a joke, but it was sooo quiet!!!

Hey Shield Arc, good to see your input here in this thread. Care to elaborate more about what you didn't like about the Pro 300, I'd really like to know more. Thanks:cool:

J Hall
12-13-2006, 05:39 AM
Shield Arc,
I like that sticker:D

All this talk about what stainless will look like after time has me a little confused. Paint scratches and fades, Stainless scratches and gets dull.
The thing I would worry about is does the machine do the job and is it reliable.

ShieldArc
12-13-2006, 07:42 AM
Hey Shield Arc, good to see your input here in this thread. Care to elaborate more about what you didn't like about the Pro 300, I'd really like to know more. Thanks:cool:

The LWS called me about 2mo ago to try out a pro300 that was a demo for dealers. I brought 2 beveled pieces of 12" pipe to butt weld. I weld part time for the gas company here.Their welding procedure is 5p+ all the way out on all pipe. The root went in ok but when i put in the hot pass it just wasnt digging out the wagon tracks like a lincoln can, i had the dig dial at max dig. My Ranger 305G digs great, it has variable dig witch works! When i put in the fill pass i even felt uncomfortable how it went in. Not impressed with the cap either, the miller arc,,, as on the 3 new trailblazers ive bought in the past, is just a sizzling ball of fire that is soft and sometimes unstable at times. Believe me, if miller was better i wouldnt hesitate to buy one!!!! Im discriminating and dont like settling for 2nd best. I can easily tell the difference between different yrs of sa200's.
The best welding miller is a pipe-pro, witch is similar to chopper technology. But the pipe-pro has toooooooo many parts inside to be reliable. No way in **** i would own one of those out of warranty! Its funny miller reps telling people that own pipe-pro's that other people arent having problems with their's....... I've talked to many owners.
Miller is a good general purpose machine, not a pipe welding machine.
I can go on and on here but i must get to work, i dont want to get fired :D

ShieldArc
12-13-2006, 07:49 AM
Shield Arc,
I like that sticker:D

All this talk about what stainless will look like after time has me a little confused. Paint scratches and fades, Stainless scratches and gets dull.
The thing I would worry about is does the machine do the job and is it reliable.

I had a stainless kit on my first trailblazer 251. It does get dull unless you keep it polished with a stailless cleaner. Remember to rub with the grain when cleaning. It always looked good 10ft away :)

calweld
12-13-2006, 08:58 AM
Shield Arc,
I like that sticker:D

All this talk about what stainless will look like after time has me a little confused. Paint scratches and fades, Stainless scratches and gets dull.
The thing I would worry about is does the machine do the job and is it reliable.

I was wondering myself????? What exactly is the priority here?? Me, the finish is the lowest priority criteria I use in deciding which welder to purchase . . . I agree with Jeff, performance and reliability is #1 thru #10 on the list . . .

I got my Commanders used . . . from a rental outfit:eek: :eek: Both have normal dings and dents and scratches, one even got too close to a concrete pour at one point, has splashes of concrete all over it:rolleyes: They look like "working" welders . . kind of like "work clothes" , when you see a tradesman all clean and spiffy all the time you wonder how much work he actually does :p

coalsmoke
12-13-2006, 03:51 PM
The LWS called me about 2mo ago to try out a pro300 that was a demo for dealers. I brought 2 beveled pieces of 12" pipe to butt weld. I weld part time for the gas company here.Their welding procedure is 5p+ all the way out on all pipe. The root went in ok but when i put in the hot pass it just wasnt digging out the wagon tracks like a lincoln can, i had the dig dial at max dig. My Ranger 305G digs great, it has variable dig witch works! When i put in the fill pass i even felt uncomfortable how it went in. Not impressed with the cap either, the miller arc,,, as on the 3 new trailblazers ive bought in the past, is just a sizzling ball of fire that is soft and sometimes unstable at times. Believe me, if miller was better i wouldnt hesitate to buy one!!!! Im discriminating and dont like settling for 2nd best. I can easily tell the difference between different yrs of sa200's.
The best welding miller is a pipe-pro, witch is similar to chopper technology. But the pipe-pro has toooooooo many parts inside to be reliable. No way in **** i would own one of those out of warranty! Its funny miller reps telling people that own pipe-pro's that other people arent having problems with their's....... I've talked to many owners.
Miller is a good general purpose machine, not a pipe welding machine.
I can go on and on here but i must get to work, i dont want to get fired :D

Shield Arc, you've always been dead on in the past, I have no reason to doubt you here. Thanks for the info about the Millers. One of the hardest things is trying to sort through how much of what a person thinks of their machine is personal pride. Some with the pro300 say it produces a great arc, then those that try it but are usedd to the lincolns say otherwise;) Sometimes I wonder if people are just trying to justify their purchases, or, maybe they run in a way that works well with the Millers.

How's the 1990 something (95-98?) Lincoln Classic II with the Deutz air cooled engines as far as pipe machines go?


I was wondering myself????? What exactly is the priority here?? Me, the finish is the lowest priority criteria I use in deciding which welder to purchase . . . I agree with Jeff, performance and reliability is #1 thru #10 on the list . . .

I got my Commanders used . . . from a rental outfit:eek: :eek: Both have normal dings and dents and scratches, one even got too close to a concrete pour at one point, has splashes of concrete all over it:rolleyes: They look like "working" welders . . kind of like "work clothes" , when you see a tradesman all clean and spiffy all the time you wonder how much work he actually does :p
I don't think any welder would disagree with you there, performance over aesthetics any day, but, many a rig owner are darn proud of what they have, and a rusting turd-like object on the back of a shiney truck just doesn't look so hot. Just like you wouldn't take a 69vette resto to Maaco for a $1000 paint job. Well, I wouldn't at least;) . Now, I know of a few guys here that get around the steel machine rusty blues by just repainting machine. Its not rocket science, doesn't need any special stainless package, and can be re-applied every few years so it always looks spiffy.:cool:

calweld
12-13-2006, 05:21 PM
Wellllll . . .

Seems to me a lot of guys are blinded by loyalty . . . think Miller is the best, and will justify their reasoning to the end. Fact is, most of the guys pushing Millers have probably never even tried the other machines out. Seems once somebody tries a Lincoln engine drive, they never go back???? Mine are rectified AC machines, but I'm happier with them than I am with my 301G, which is 3 or 4 years newer than the Commanders.

BTW, I'll take my rusting turd-like object on my rusting turd-like truck over anybody's shiny new welder on a shiny new truck any day,,, no payments, I owe nobody anything, and I can produce--really produce. I agree, I wouldn't spend money at Maaco, I'd do it myself, out of spraycans if necessary, drips and all (and when I paint, plenty of drips!!!).

If you're in business, you really can't be restricted by loyalties to a single brand, you need to buy what can do the best for you. Me, I have no loyalties, I'm like the streetwalkers :o downtown, I've had Millers, Lincolns, Hobarts (pre-ITW), Pow-con, TA, etc. Even in vehicles, I've gone thru Fords, Chrysler, AMC, a few foreign makes, and now a Chevrolet. Whatever fits the bill, at the best price at the time. Yeah, I know, it's been said before, I'm a prostitute, I'll do anything for money with anybody:o :D :D But guess who's laughing all the way to the bank?????

Pile Buck
12-13-2006, 05:45 PM
Mine are rectified AC machines, but I'm happier with them than I am with my 301G, which is 3 or 4 years newer than the Commanders.

Ok Mr. Lincoln, :D :D :D ;)

give us your take on the difference between the Commander, and the SAM 400!

calweld
12-13-2006, 05:54 PM
Trying to put me on the spot here???? !!!!! OK, you deliver me a SAM 400 and I'll give you a critique between the two. PM me, I'll give you the delivery address :D :D

All I can say, 5 year old Commander, with 5 year old chopper tech, I like better than 3 year old Miller 301G, with equivalent rods. Anything more than that, you send me the test equipment ;) ;)

calweld
12-13-2006, 06:03 PM
and BTW, that old Hobart I have will outweld either the Miller or the Commanders. I just can't afford the gas . .:eek: :eek:

I thought we were talking about looks, not performance??????:confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

Pile Buck
12-13-2006, 06:13 PM
and BTW, that old Hobart I have will outweld either the Miller or the Commanders.
Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh I could tell you some horror stories about Hobart engine drives!:eek:

No I only asked your opinion on the difference between the Commander and the SAM 400, because the Commanders came out after I quit welding. Iíve rented hundreds of them, but only ran any of them just long enough to help some goof ball set his / her machine:rolleyes: . Iíve spent a many hour running the SAMís. I owned a Trailblazer 55-D but in my opinion it wasnít near the machine as the SAM.;)

calweld
12-13-2006, 06:24 PM
Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh I could tell you some horror stories about Hobart engine drives!:eek:

I love my Hobart engine drive. . .

I've never run a SAM 400, send me one and I'll give you my take on it.

I think Jeff has one, ask him, he can compare to his Vantage.

If you send me one, it's gotta stay here at least six months!!!!!

Pile Buck
12-13-2006, 06:33 PM
I've never run a SAM 400, send me one and I'll give you my take on it.
Iím not sure, maybe shouldnít say a word:o , but reading between the lines of Jeffís post I get the impression the Vantage is on a higher level than the Commander, but only Jeff could say for sure.;)

So let me get this straight you want me to go rent a SAM, so you can run it? Thatís if you could even rent one! Maybe Jeff will let you borrow his. Iíll be heading down your way after the first, if Jeff is willing I guess I could drag that F-550 east to Jeffís before doubling back to your place:eek: . How far off hwy 99 are you anyway?

J Hall
12-13-2006, 08:25 PM
So let me get this straight you want me to go rent a SAM, so you can run it? Thatís if you could even rent one! Maybe Jeff will let you borrow his. Iíll be heading down your way after the first, if Jeff is willing I guess I could drag that F-550 east to Jeffís before doubling back to your place:eek: . How far off hwy 99 are you anyway?

You can borrow mine any time you want. What are friends for? Call ahead and I will have it fueled up.

I can't compare anything to a commander, as I have never ran one. But I do like the Vantage. It is a real nice machine, not a killer powerhouse of a machine but that isn't what I was looking for

Pile Buck
12-13-2006, 08:36 PM
You can borrow mine any time you want. What are friends for? Call ahead and I will have it fueled up.r
What a guy, what a guy! :cool: :cool: :cool: ;)



So no one here has ran a SAM, and a Vantage, and a Commander?????? Some welding forum!:rolleyes:


Where the he!! is JT when you need him? :D

J Hall
12-13-2006, 08:50 PM
Where the he!! is JT when you need him? :D

Out of town working...
I though the same thing when Coal asked about the Classic/Deutz.

J Hall
12-13-2006, 08:51 PM
I think Shield Arc's sticker would look good on that old SAM 400:D

ShieldArc
12-13-2006, 09:03 PM
Ok Mr. Lincoln, :D :D :D ;)

give us your take on the difference between the Commander, and the SAM 400!

I'll take the SAM 400 without a doubt.
The Commanders came in 300, 400, and 500 versions. They were the first chopper welders. I dont know if they were as reliable as a miller. I think what Lincoln learned from Commanders they applied to the Vantages. Vantages perform better and are more reliable!!!

ShieldArc
12-13-2006, 09:42 PM
Coalsmoke, the Lincoln Classic II with the Deutz is a good machine. The best part about it is its shorter than a SA 200 and SA 300. It will sit sideway behind your cab in the box easily. Its made to do all the maintance servicing through 1 door, the right one, whitch would be in the rear of the truck. The only think i dont like about the machine is the 3cyl engine vibrates more than i would like. But that engine will go beyond 10,000hrs though.

calweld
12-13-2006, 10:29 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that the Vantages are a step up from the Commanders, and the SAM 400 is above both. After all, there is a 5 year jump in technology between the Commander and the Vantage. Both are trying to duplicate the DC arc of the SAM, I've never run one but I'd be willing to bet neither one quite matches it. The one big advantage of the Commanders and Vantages over the SAM is the AC generator power, for a service guy like me that is indespensable, I can run a TIG, plasma, or the biggest electric tool you can think of off it (I know, Carl, you can post pictures of tools I can't even imagine:rolleyes: ).

As far as reliability goes, I have the service records for both of my machines, approx 2000 hours on each when I got them, one has nothing except oil changes, the other has one time no output (I assume PC board) and one time starter locked up (Deutz engine), both were repaired under warranty. Also a couple ground fault receptacles went bad, that's not a problem anymore, I replaced all GF receptacles with standard ones :) Since I've had them, absolutely no problems. Now, I understand these aren't exactly in the same class as my Millers, but by the time any of the Millers were even close to 2000 hours, I had already had each one in the shop a couple times for PC boards, and was preparing to replace them.

I ran that Hobart for a couple thousand hours (no idea how many were on it before I got it, came from a structural iron shop, about a 1985 model, I'm sure it was well used). I changed the oil a few times, I think I replaced the spark plugs once maybe??:confused:


Maybe Jeff will let you borrow his. Iíll be heading down your way after the first, if Jeff is willing I guess I could drag that F-550 east to Jeffís before doubling back to your place . How far off hwy 99 are you anyway?

You can borrow mine any time you want. What are friends for? Call ahead and I will have it fueled up.

Well, there you have it. Might as well grab the Vantage while you're at it, we'll settle all the questions at the same time. You can probably make a loop, pick up several of the guys on the way out and back. Maybe even find a Pro 300 or a Big Blue somewhere, we can really compare and contrast. Heck, make it about the 20th, I've got a crab feed to go to (Italian style!!!), give me enough notice I'll treat:) :) . I'm only two miles off 99, you couldn't miss me if you tried. I'll even show you the back way to Copperopolis, you don't even need to go through Stockton.

coalsmoke
12-13-2006, 11:30 PM
Coalsmoke, the Lincoln Classic II with the Deutz is a good machine. The best part about it is its shorter than a SA 200 and SA 300. It will sit sideway behind your cab in the box easily. Its made to do all the maintance servicing through 1 door, the right one, whitch would be in the rear of the truck. The only think i dont like about the machine is the 3cyl engine vibrates more than i would like. But that engine will go beyond 10,000hrs though.

Thanks for the information Shield, there's one locally for sale, for about 40% the cost of a new classic 300, not sure what the hours are but it looks to be one of the newer Classic II's. If things pick up with the new advertising in spring I might try and afford it, as I know the guy who's selling it and he's a pretty straight shooter.:cool:

coalsmoke
12-14-2006, 05:29 AM
For those of you that live by a Lincoln classic or similar DC generator style welder, how much can the duty cycle be overrun without too much risk to the machine. The Classic II for example, it is rated at:
250A @ 60% duty cycle,
300A @ 40% duty cycle.

Now for some machines, that 300A rating might be closer to 60-70% duty cycle before thigns start to smell funny;) anyone have any experience in this regard? I seem to remember SBerry talking about pushing a SA200 way past it's duty cycle with no apparent issues, anyone else care to shed some light on this? :cool:

Pile Buck
12-14-2006, 08:55 AM
I'm only two miles off 99, you couldn't miss me if you tried. I'll even show you the back way to Copperopolis, you don't even need to go through Stockton.
My sister is up here for the month of December. She just bought a used 40-foot refrigerated shipping container from the Port of Seattle, and had it delivered to my parents. She will store her furniture in it. Her furniture is in a storage facility in Citrus Hts. Right now she is in a dilemma of which way is the most cost effective way to move her stuff up here. Furniture in Sacramento, my brother-n-laws shop full tools still in Copperopolis. She thought she had a slam dunk with my F-550, until I told her what the MPG was:eek: :eek: :eek: , and what U-haul charges for a trailer.:eek:

Pile Buck
12-14-2006, 09:00 AM
For those of you that live by a Lincoln classic or similar DC generator style welder, how much can the duty cycle be overrun without too much risk to the machine.
Coal, I always looked at duty cycle myself, especially with a wire feed. SMAW, and GTAW not so much. That Trailblazer I had, on a galvanized dock job in Bellingham. The Alaska ferry terminal. I rented my equipment to my company, while I worked for wages. I got stuck welding precast concrete deck panels to the galvanized cap beams:mad: . I was running 70-pounds a day of Hobartís 21-B Fabshield. 575-amps, 10-hours a day 5 and 6-days a week for a couple months. Every morning I had to replace the Tweeco twist lock fittings on the leads at the machine. But that was it, no other problems:cool: .

About 1985 or 1986 some buddies of mine went to Kotzebue, Alaska to build some huge sheet pile cells for the Red Dog mine. The company bought all new SAM-400s. I canít remember all the details but after a big storm the cells got mowed over by the ice in the bay:eek: . The company had to air freight new sheet pile in from Germany to stay on schedule. Once the sheet pile arrived, cost of labor wasnít in the equation! All the hours the guys could take. I donít remember if all their wire feeders took a dump or what:confused: . But for some reason they switched to 1/4 -inch rod. For their flat welding. My buddy Mike said the SAMs were toast by the end of the job! :eek:

calweld
12-14-2006, 11:42 AM
Right now she is in a dilemma of which way is the most cost effective way to move her stuff up here. Furniture in Sacramento, my brother-n-laws shop full tools still in Copperopolis.

Well, once again, I can see this clear as a bell, solution to half of your problems anyway . . . about that shop full of tools . . . just have to move it 30 miles or so, no need to haul them all the way up there :D :D ;)


Coal, I always looked at duty cycle myself, especially with a wire feed

The big commanders and vantages are 100% duty cycle right up to 500 amps, my Commanders fall off to 50% at 575 amps. The Big Blues are similar.

coalsmoke
12-14-2006, 03:58 PM
My sister is up here for the month of December. She just bought a used 40-foot refrigerated shipping container from the Port of Seattle, and had it delivered to my parents. She will store her furniture in it. Her furniture is in a storage facility in Citrus Hts. Right now she is in a dilemma of which way is the most cost effective way to move her stuff up here. Furniture in Sacramento, my brother-n-laws shop full tools still in Copperopolis. She thought she had a slam dunk with my F-550, until I told her what the MPG was :eek: :eek: , and what U-haul charges for a trailer.:eek:

Hey what is the MPG on that new truck of yours? It has the powerstroke right?



Coal, I always looked at duty cycle myself, especially with a wire feed. SMAW, and GTAW not so much. That Trailblazer I had, on a galvanized dock job in Bellingham. The Alaska ferry terminal. I rented my equipment to my company, while I worked for wages. I got stuck welding precast concrete deck panels to the galvanized cap beams:mad: . I was running 70-pounds a day of Hobartís 21-B Fabshield. 575-amps, 10-hours a day 5 and 6-days a week for a couple months. Every morning I had to replace the Tweeco twist lock fittings on the leads at the machine. But that was it, no other problems:cool: .

About 1985 or 1986 some buddies of mine went to Kotzebue, Alaska to build some huge sheet pile cells for the Red Dog mine. The company bought all new SAM-400s. I canít remember all the details but after a big storm the cells got mowed over by the ice in the bay:eek: . The company had to air freight new sheet pile in from Germany to stay on schedule. Once the sheet pile arrived, cost of labor wasnít in the equation! All the hours the guys could take. I donít remember if all their wire feeders took a dump or what:confused: . But for some reason they switched to 1/4 -inch rod. For their flat welding. My buddy Mike said the SAMs were toast by the end of the job! :eek:

yikes, I would think they must have been pushing big wire to kill a SAM.:eek: I don't know much about the slip ring pure dc style machines, everything I'm used to is the AC stator style machine, where its been my experience you can add another 25% to what the recommended duty cycle is no problem. If 'n when I switch to a classic style machine, I want to make sure I can still service my heavy equipment customers. Realistically, right now I get by fine running 3/16" 7018 around 180-250amps, depending on the situation. The classic that gives 250A at 60% would work, just so long as its a big 60%;) That's why I'm poking around trying to figure out how well these things can be overrun without cooking them.

Pile Buck
12-14-2006, 04:26 PM
Hey what is the MPG on that new truck of yours? It has the powerstroke right?
11.9 with it looking like the 1st picture.:mad:
9.0 looking like the 2nd picture:( . Coming back from eastern Washington with 4-tons of hay. Some of those hills in the Cascades, the truck would hit 34-pounds of boost:eek: .

That 4:88 rear end is just a killer for gallons per mile:mad: . At one time I had a F-350 with a 429 cuin. It got between 250 to 300 yards per gallon! :eek: :D

ShieldArc
12-14-2006, 06:34 PM
For those of you that live by a Lincoln classic or similar DC generator style welder, how much can the duty cycle be overrun without too much risk to the machine. The Classic II for example, it is rated at:
250A @ 60% duty cycle,
300A @ 40% duty cycle.

Now for some machines, that 300A rating might be closer to 60-70% duty cycle before thigns start to smell funny;) anyone have any experience in this regard? I seem to remember SBerry talking about pushing a SA200 way past it's duty cycle with no apparent issues, anyone else care to shed some light on this? :cool:

The Lincoln generator machines are definatly underated, every generator I've seen that was overheated and hurt, which wasnt very many over the yrs, was incorrectly set when thawing frozen pipe. I've thawed a lot of pipe with SA-200 machines with no problems. My friend with a big40 quit thawing pipe because his contacts in his range selector would burn up.
So what concerns you about duty cycle coalsmoke? The Alaska pipeline was welded with many SA200s. My first SA200 came from the Alaska pipeline and its still going today and its never had a problem, just normal maintance. :)

ShieldArc
12-14-2006, 06:37 PM
That 4:88 rear end is just a killer for gallons per mile:mad: . At one time I had a F-350 with a 429 cuin. It got between 250 to 300 yards per gallon! :eek: :D

:D NOW THATS FUNNY!!!!! :D

ShieldArc
12-14-2006, 09:58 PM
Most capping is done with 1/4" rod, a "Lincoln Pipeline 200" just doesn't have the oomph to cap with 1/4" let alone weld with it, Simply kills the engine, The SA200's with a pto type temporary throttle lock has lots of power. however the point was that you can't over rev the Pipeliner series as they are electronicly controlled

The Classic 3D already has lots of torque to weld 1/4".

The Vantage 300 kubota practically kills the engine when you try to run 1/4", While the Vantage 300 Duetz purrs along

Most capping is done with 3/16 and a SA200 burns it in 4th gear all day long!!!!!!

coalsmoke
12-14-2006, 10:17 PM
11.9 with it looking like the 1st picture.:mad:
9.0 looking like the 2nd picture:( . Coming back from eastern Washington with 4-tons of hay. Some of those hills in the Cascades, the truck would hit 34-pounds of boost:eek: .
That 4:88 rear end is just a killer for gallons per mile:mad: . At one time I had a F-350 with a 429 cuin. It got between 250 to 300 yards per gallon! :eek:
Wow, that is really bad my friend:o My neighbours frightliner with the D60 gets 12mpg as an empty tractor and my dodge at just under 11,000lbs and about as aerodynamic as a brick gets between 15.5-16mpg every time at the pumps, and I don't live in flat country. All this technology going into the engines, you'd think it would be helping the fuel economy more. the 300 yards per gallon is funny, reminds me of tanks, where the measure it in gallons per mile.:D

coalsmoke
12-14-2006, 10:51 PM
The Lincoln generator machines are definatly underated, every generator I've seen that was overheated and hurt, which wasnt very many over the yrs, was incorrectly set when thawing frozen pipe. I've thawed a lot of pipe with SA-200 machines with no problems. My friend with a big40 quit thawing pipe because his contacts in his range selector would burn up.
So what concerns you about duty cycle coalsmoke? The Alaska pipeline was welded with many SA200s. My first SA200 came from the Alaska pipeline and its still going today and its never had a problem, just normal maintance. :)

Well if you can run 3/16 lo-hy all day with a 200, then the older 300 (really more of a 250 I guess) should be just fine then. My only concern is getting a machine that I end up repeatedly overworking on the heavy equipment and then burning out. I'm usually running about 80% duty cycle at peak times, maybe for at most a couple hours straight, when I'm just punching rod after rod, but that's at 200-200 amps usually, and the Classic 2 advertizes up to 325A, with d/c figures of 100% @ 200A / 60% at 250A. Most of the time I'm closer to the 50-60% duty cycle range and not the above 80%. I just get nervous when running a machine at a current level that has the machine rated below 60% duty cycle. I don't run big wire, so I don't compete with the type of heavy equipment stuff that Calweld does. I tailor more to the smaller 4 to 20 hour jobs, so I can afford to be a bit slower with the process, in this case I use SMAW almost exclusively.

When I first bought the trailblazer, one of the things I liked about it was the 300A @100% duty cycle. I figured it would be great for gouging, actually, I thought I'd need that 100% duty ccle to keep the machine from melting itself down when gouging, but the truth is, whenever I'm gouging, I doubt I exceed 50% duty cycle;) Maybe I am still too hung up on duty cycle, after all, I was wrong about the gouging:o I've just always liked the idea of not having to worry a machine's duty cycle.

skidsteer.ca
12-14-2006, 11:36 PM
Hello all
I was looking at plasma cutters and was wondering everyones thoughts on using them with heavy material. I do a good portion of my welding with 1/4 to 1/2 mild steel. However we also do rebuilding and maintenance on 1" material for 6 weeks or so each year. Is a plasma really the way to go with heavy material? Is it faster and more economical then a set of torches?
I know its way faster in lighter material, and a way cleaner cut. I took some 1 " stock to a local shop that is closing up and tried their Pac Master 100xl, it cut it ok but the travel speed was not as good as I hoped, certainly no better then a torch imho. It is rate for 1" , 1 1/4" severe. They want to much for their 2 year old unit, I can go new for 17% more.
Should I be looking at a higher capacity machine to work with 1" for beveling, etc?

How would it work as a replacement for my arc air? Also something I never though about initially was piercing (sp) holes. Do plasma work well for this or do you just ruin your tips like with a torch
Finally, the Thermal Dynamics brand has had the best price I have found so far for the US built machines 2489.00 for the 100xl and just under 2900 for the next larger model, shipped in lower 48, I have a bit of blue paint in my shop (miller 280 trailblazer, miller shopmaster, millermatic 210, s32s suitcase feeder) is it worth the xtra k to keep it in the family.
Thanks for your help.
Ken

coalsmoke
12-14-2006, 11:43 PM
skidsteer, this is the wrong thread to be posting that in, please move it to your own thread. Go to welding products and selct the "new thread" tab. thanks:cool:

J Hall
12-15-2006, 06:31 AM
I've just always liked the idea of not having to worry a machine's duty cycle.

I think that if you have a good mid range or large machine that it would be hard to exceed the duty cycle with a manual process.

As I recall, Lincoln generators used the standard NEMA ratings for a particular size machine but the machines were engineered to do way more than what they were advertised.
The had a term for this in their ads, but I cannot recall what it was.

ShieldArc
12-15-2006, 06:42 AM
I had my Ranger 305 on a load bank before and ot does put out 305amps, exactly what its rated. The guys in that welder repair shop were miller boys and they were shocked, i could see it in their faces. They knew trailblazers would not put out 300 hehehe. I never had any of my SA200s on a load bank before, but they are rated at 200amps 60% duty cycle. Now i have used both for air arcing with 3/16 carbons and a SA200 puts out more current than a Ranger 305G. The only time i wondered about duty cycle was when i thawed water pipe. But remember,, duty cycle is different on a 10degree F day than on a 99degree day...

J Hall
12-15-2006, 10:38 AM
When I went to buy my Ranger 305, I couldn't believe that you could get 300 amps with a lawnmower engine, so we put it on the load bank at the dealer. For 1 hour. stayed steady at 297 amps. not bad at all since it was at a fairly high elevation.

ShieldArc
12-15-2006, 01:38 PM
SA200s and classic1s put out 300amps.
Classic2s will put out 325amps
Classic3s will put out 350amps
That is max output, at what duty cycle i dont know.
If i was going to burn a lot of big flux core wire and air arcing i think i would buy a bigger Vantage.

coalsmoke
12-15-2006, 02:30 PM
I think that if you have a good mid range or large machine that it would be hard to exceed the duty cycle with a manual process.

As I recall, Lincoln generators used the standard NEMA ratings for a particular size machine but the machines were engineered to do way more than what they were advertised.
The had a term for this in their ads, but I cannot recall what it was.
That's what I was hoping was would be the case, that their design and construction makes them much more robust than the average trailblazer / pipepro / vantage style machine. While I haven't had one go south on me, I certainly won't miss the PC boards. Every time the TB302 has a little hiccup you can't help but wonder whether its a board on its way out. I can say thought that this trailblazer pushes 1/4" carbons like nobodies business, :cool: of course, it sounds like the little Kohler is about to hiccup a valve and you can tell its really too much for 20HP, but it does work better than the 3/16" capacity that is advertized.



SA200s and classic1s put out 300amps.
Classic2s will put out 325amps
Classic3s will put out 350amps
That is max output, at what duty cycle i dont know.
If i was going to burn a lot of big flux core wire and air arcing i think i would buy a bigger Vantage.
The vantage was something I was looking at closely, but I'm not sure that I trust the vantage yet as along term reliable contender (not to say its not doing better than it competition). Also, I realized that I rarely need over 3000W of auxilary power, and when I do, its most often because of a power outage and the TB302 fills that gap well. I am trying to get away from the idea of big fluxcore, and not trying to compete so hard in the heavy equipment sector. There's a lot of changes in the heavy equipment market, hence why I am working out of it and towards to specialty and pipe-related aspects. I figure a simple classic style machine might serve me best.

I quickly graphed the output vs duty cycle of the classic II, and if it shares any sort of linear pattern, the max output of 325A would be around 30%.

J Hall
12-15-2006, 07:38 PM
Coal,
The ClassicII Duetz is nema rated 250amp 30v 60%
Lincoln ratings,
200 A 28v 100%
250A 30V 60%
300A 32V 40%

http://content.lincolnelectric.com//pdfs/products/navigator/im/IM515B.pdf

coalsmoke
12-16-2006, 01:59 AM
thanks Jeff, got that one already. they could have used better pictures though;)

JTMcCracken
12-20-2006, 05:18 PM
What a guy, what a guy! :cool: :cool: :cool: ;)



So no one here has ran a SAM, and a Vantage, and a Commander?????? Some welding forum!:rolleyes:


Where the he!! is JT when you need him? :D


I can throw this bit of info into the mix, a good friend of mine (who is a retired UA Steamfitter) has a Peterbilt truck with a Commander 500 and a AirVantage 500 on it and does a lot of equipment repair and line boring. The AirVantage replaces a SAM 400 (his second one) and I respect his opinion as fact on these machines and his take is this:
He bought the AirVantage for 1) the air compressor and 2) the large amount of both single and three phase auxillary power. The on demand screw compressor will run two air arcs and two needle guns without even breathing hard and the machine makes a ton of aux. power, but the SAM 400 was much more of a horse as far as welding output. He says the SAM would air arc at higher amps than either 500 amp machine he now has, hour after hour, day after day. I know the SAM 400's would reach up into the mid 600 amp range on the top end. Lincoln generators will do quite a bit more than advertised. The 500's are doing the job nicely for him but the SAM still had mucho more guts. But the huge amount of on board air and the aux. power pretty much makes up for the lower top end "for him".

It all depends on your needs.

I've run a couple of Vantages, one a 400 and one a 300. The big advantage is, again, lots of aux. power, plus versatility. I'm still happily stuck in true DC generator land which works best for the work I do. But my work is pretty specialized, people with broader needs are better off with more versatile machines.

As always this is my take only, based on real world experience, not that internet learnin:eek: .


JTMcC.

JTMcCracken
12-20-2006, 05:46 PM
The pipeliner 200, has a deisel or a gm 4banger, (not talking about the SA200) The gm 4 banger has been discontined

Not hard to jack the output of a SA200 up high enough to cap 1/4", very difficult to do on a Pipliner 200

Passing routes on a Pipliner 200 easy to do, capping is another matter, lots of SA200's in the field, not alot of Pipeliner 200's though, mostly SA200's and and classic 3D's

JT apparently you don't have a clue what a Lincoln Pipeliner 200 is, suprise, suprise.....


I've run every engine drive generator machine Lincoln has made, be it a flat head from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or the 90's, general Motors 4 cylinder, Deutz 3 cylinder, Perkins, Kubota, Continental diesel, and on it goes. I've run the machine of every welder I've ever brother in lawed with (and they've run mine), over the years that's a lot of machines, in the real world, making visual and xray on every weld. So yes, I have a clue what a Lincoln Pipeliner is, I've made production welds with them, and tie in welds, and fabrication as well. All in the harsh pipeline environment. No interweb xpert here, no welding machine mechanic here, just a welder.

JTMcC.

JTMcCracken
12-20-2006, 05:55 PM
Most capping is done with 1/4" rod,



This is unadulterated total BS. For someone who has never made a living in the welding world you spout a lot of stupidity. I'd like to be more polite but you just beg for it.

JTMcC.

Pile Buck
12-20-2006, 06:19 PM
This is unadulterated total BS. For someone who has never made a living in the welding world you spout a lot of stupidity. I'd like to be more polite but you just beg for it.

JTMcC.

Thank you sir!!!!!!!!!!;);) ;) ;)

TRG-42
12-20-2006, 07:01 PM
Because we are talking abou two types of engine drives here , generator welders and and rectified alternators , its important to understand the duty cycle / max output capabilities of these machines

Duty Cycle

First off, Lincoln "nameplate rates" the generators typically at 60% . For example a Classic 300D will give about 300amps 60% , 250amps 100% etc

This has been the tradition forever. this makes sense because you don't really weld a 100% duty cycle manually anyways

Generator machines have the welding current carrying portion ( armature ) spinning on the inside of the generator . Because its inside of the frame and its windings its harder to keep cool. Also the welding current must be transfered through the brushes ( big honking carbon brushes )

This is a convervative amp / duty cycle rating because Lincoln needs to cover their ***. If you over current / duty cycle a generator machine there is nothing to keep it from overheating and "slinging solder " . The inside of the machine will have the molten solder flung out at which point the armature windings typically will jam themselves ( at 1800rpm ) into the inside of the generator.

Alternator machines, produce the welding current on the stator ( the outside part ) . Because this is exposed its much easier to cool .

Peak Output

A generator machine will make waaay more output than its nameplate rating. For example a generator like a SAE400 ( rated at 400amps 60% ) will easily hit 800+ amps when gouging or a load bank.

A Vantage 500 ( 500 amps 100% ) or a Big Blue 500 ( 500 amps 100% duty cycle ) will give you about 600 amps on a peak . This is why a old dinosaur like the SAE400 / SAM400 will out gouge a new fangled Vantage 500 or Big Blue 500

This is why you need to be carefull comparing welders form brochure specs. The real world is seldom like a brochure.

Another example, see the VA curve of a Classic 300

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/Classic300VA.jpg

This VA curve is typical of generator machines where it gradually slopes down . A Classic 300D will make over 450 amps BTW . Typically the VA curve from an alternator machine goes down near vertical as it approaches its "rated output", so max output is not much higher than rated output

Why the higher peak amps

The main reason that generators can make such peak output is that its not limited artificially by the control board ( there is no control board ! ) .Quite simply, a Vantage 500 is designed to peak at a determined output.

Another reason is generator machines have far more rotating inertia. A good analogy is trying to stop a truck tire thats spinning at 1800rpm and a car tire at 1800rpm . This helps reduce the tendancy for the machine to bog down when gouging

Lastly, all generator machines have more HP on reserve than their alternator counterparts. Example, a Classic 300D ( 300 amp 60% ) has a 33hp engine, the Vantage 300 ( 300 amps 100% ) has a 22hp engine

A Miller Big Blue 500 ( 500 amps 100% ) has a 47hp engine , the SAE 400 ( a lowly 400 amp at 60% ) has a 68 hp engine . Thats over 40% more HP

coalsmoke
12-20-2006, 07:21 PM
Because we are talking abou two types of engine drives here , generator welders and and rectified alternators , its important to understand the duty cycle / max output capabilities of these machines

Duty Cycle

First off, Lincoln "nameplate rates" the generators typically at 60% . For example a Classic 300D will give about 300amps 60% , 250amps 100% etc

This has been the tradition forever. this makes sense because you don't really weld a 100% duty cycle manually anyways

Generator machines have the welding current carrying portion ( armature ) spinning on the inside of the generator . Because its inside of the frame and its windings its harder to keep cool. Also the welding current must be transfered through the brushes ( big honking carbon brushes )

This is a convervative amp / duty cycle rating because Lincoln needs to cover their ***. If you over current / duty cycle a generator machine there is nothing to keep it from overheating and "slinging solder " . The inside of the machine will have the molten solder flung out at which point the armature windings typically will jam themselves ( at 1800rpm ) into the inside of the generator.

Alternator machines, produce the welding current on the stator ( the outside part ) . Because this is exposed its much easier to cool .

Peak Output

A generator machine will make waaay more output than its nameplate rating. For example a generator like a SAE400 ( rated at 400amps 60% ) will easily hit 800+ amps when gouging or a load bank.

A Vantage 500 ( 500 amps 100% ) or a Big Blue 500 ( 500 amps 100% duty cycle ) will give you about 600 amps on a peak . This is why a old dinosaur like the SAE400 / SAM400 will out gouge a new fangled Vantage 500 or Big Blue 500

This is why you need to be carefull comparing welders form brochure specs. The real world is seldom like a brochure.

Another example, see the VA curve of a Classic 300



This VA curve is typical of generator machines where it gradually slopes down . A Classic 300D will make over 450 amps BTW . Typically the VA curve from an alternator machine goes down near vertical as it approaches its "rated output", so max output is not much higher than rated output

Why the higher peak amps

The main reason that generators can make such peak output is that its not limited artificially by the control board ( there is no control board ! ) .Quite simply, a Vantage 500 is designed to peak at a determined output.

Another reason is generator machines have far more rotating inertia. A good analogy is trying to stop a truck tire thats spinning at 1800rpm and a car tire at 1800rpm . This helps reduce the tendancy for the machine to bog down when gouging

Lastly, all generator machines have more HP on reserve than their alternator counterparts. Example, a Classic 300D ( 300 amp 60% ) has a 33hp engine, the Vantage 300 ( 300 amps 100% ) has a 22hp engine

A Miller Big Blue 500 ( 500 amps 100% ) has a 47hp engine , the SAE 400 ( a lowly 400 amp at 60% ) has a 68 hp engine . Thats over 40% more HP

TRG, thanks for clearing up a bunch of information there. Knowing not only how but why it works really clears things up. I suspect also that the higher HP figures behind the generator machines has much to do with those higher peak amperages that you showed us:cool:


JT, IIRC you are selling your Classic II? I was just wondering what the new machine you were planning to move to is. I was talking to a local pipeliner the day before yesterday, and asked how he liked his shiny new 300D. Said he didn't like the arc one bit, he had the mahcine for a couple months now but is going to put his older 3D back on the truck. I'm not sure what Lincoln changed, but this guy claimed there was a noticeable difference.

JTMcCracken
12-20-2006, 07:41 PM
TRG, thanks for clearing up a bunch of information there. Knowing not only how but why it works really clears things up. I suspect also that the higher HP figures behind the generator machines has much to do with those higher peak amperages that you showed us:cool:


JT, IIRC you are selling your Classic II? I was just wondering what the new machine you were planning to move to is. I was talking to a local pipeliner the day before yesterday, and asked how he liked his shiny new 300D. Said he didn't like the arc one bit, he had the mahcine for a couple months now but is going to put his older 3D back on the truck. I'm not sure what Lincoln changed, but this guy claimed there was a noticeable difference.


Probably not. I was thinking seriously about a 200D, but now I'm thinking about keeping my Classic II and having my '69 Pipeliner repowered with a diesel.
I'm pretty much tickled to death with my CII. I'll probably drive the wheels off of it, but of course I'm liable to change my mind.
Everyone I talk to that has a new 300D is very happy.
All of the generator machines will happily weld downhill pipe, but owner preferences and personal welding style dictates that some dudes will prefer one over the other.


JTMcC.

Pile Buck
12-20-2006, 08:27 PM
having my '69 Pipeliner repowered with a diesel.

I can make you a he!! of a deal on a 6.0 Ford:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D

J Hall
12-20-2006, 09:18 PM
This is unadulterated total BS. For someone who has never made a living in the welding world you spout a lot of stupidity. I'd like to be more polite but you just beg for it.JTMcC.

It's good to see you're back, JT. Merry Christmas!

JTMcCracken
12-20-2006, 10:23 PM
I can make you a he!! of a deal on a 6.0 Ford:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D


Thanks.....but no thanks :)

I think I'll stick to the Yanmar that everyone is using.

JTMcC.

ShieldArc
12-21-2006, 07:06 AM
Thanks.....but no thanks :)

I think I'll stick to the Yanmar that everyone is using.

JTMcC.

Would that be a Fowler conversion?

JTMcCracken
12-21-2006, 09:12 AM
Ho! Ho! Ho! to you too Mr. Hall.


Mr. Shield Arc there are three people I know of that are putting Yanmars on old 200's. Fowler is one.


JTMcC.

ShieldArc
12-21-2006, 06:00 PM
Ho! Ho! Ho! to you too Mr. Hall.


Mr. Shield Arc there are three people I know of that are putting Yanmars on old 200's. Fowler is one.


JTMcC.

Does the Yanmar run at the high idle speed all the time?
What do you think of the copper kit for the newer 200s with the hexagon
generator (early 70s-90s) ? I put in a kit for a guys 1976 machine and he
likes it so far, but he is stuck tigging stainless pipe in california and
has'nt stick welded much yet. I put in the copper series, shunt and
interpole coils and installed the arc force switch too.

JTMcCracken
12-21-2006, 06:20 PM
Does the Yanmar run at the high idle speed all the time?
What do you think of the copper kit for the newer 200s with the hexagon
generator (early 70s-90s) ? I put in a kit for a guys 1976 machine and he
likes it so far, but he is stuck tigging stainless pipe in california and
has'nt stick welded much yet. I put in the copper series, shunt and
interpole coils and installed the arc force switch too.


1) I've never asked about the idle speed, but I can't imagine pipeline welders buying it if the machine is at high idle all the time so my best guess would be "no".
2) If you're talking about the Fowler coils, I know several people who are happy with them and they have a good reputation.
3) I've never run a machine with the arc force, it's part of the shunt coil isn't it?? I don't know anyone with it either, yet. So I can't say either way. If I had a Pipeliner with aluminum in it I'd seriously consider the Fowler coils and the arc force at overhaul time.


What's your take??

If the coils in my old '69 need work I might add the arc force adjustment, if not I'm not messing with the way Mr. Lincoln made it 37 years ago caose he really did good :)

JTMcC.

coalsmoke
12-21-2006, 08:01 PM
Where do you guys get your information from about these older generator machines?:confused: Is it just through word of mouth and from guys making upgrade components in small shops? I seem to remember there being a guy online that had a bunch of new replacement alternative parts for these machines, but haven't come across the website for some time. The only other site I have come across is http://www.weldmart.com/WHY%20YOU%20SHOULD%20KEEP%20YOUR%20SA-200.htm

ShieldArc
12-21-2006, 09:06 PM
1) I've never asked about the idle speed, but I can't imagine pipeline welders buying it if the machine is at high idle all the time so my best guess would be "no".
2) If you're talking about the Fowler coils, I know several people who are happy with them and they have a good reputation.
3) I've never run a machine with the arc force, it's part of the shunt coil isn't it?? I don't know anyone with it either, yet. So I can't say either way. If I had a Pipeliner with aluminum in it I'd seriously consider the Fowler coils and the arc force at overhaul time.


What's your take??

If the coils in my old '69 need work I might add the arc force adjustment, if not I'm not messing with the way Mr. Lincoln made it 37 years ago caose he really did good :)

JTMcC.

Im pretty sure T Fowler told me the Yanmar runs 1 speed but its been a year and
I forget things :(
Instead of 1 wire coming out of the shunt there is 5 that go to the arc force switch.
You have 5 different places on the shunt coil that is tapped so the arc is different
5 switch settings.
An alum machine with fowler coils is probably better than a brand new machine
from what I can tell from the machine I redone but Im not sure because the brushes
were not completely seated. (it must take over 100hrs)
In 1991 Lincoln bought the last 500 Continental f163 engines then and they got out the
old molds to make the round red face generators. They then made 500 classic 1 welders.
I bought one back then, it has my name on a brass plate on the front. They were
supposed to be sold only to pipeliners. It was supposed to weld like the red face
welders used to. Well I was dissapointed with the way it welded, it had a watery
puddle and didnt stack well. After a few adjustments I got it to weld better.
But I must say, nothing welds as good as a genuine old round generator!!!!
How can you improve perfect? :)
After thoses first classic1s sold, it seems like a yr later they come out with
the classic 1 again but with a Continental tm27 engine, many people complained
about that engine because it wasnt as reliable as a f163. To this day they are
probably still trying to find the perfect engine again. :)

ShieldArc
12-21-2006, 09:12 PM
Where do you guys get your information from about these older generator machines?:confused: Is it just through word of mouth and from guys making upgrade components in small shops? I seem to remember there being a guy online that had a bunch of new replacement alternative parts for these machines, but haven't come across the website for some time. The only other site I have come across is http://www.weldmart.com/WHY%20YOU%20SHOULD%20KEEP%20YOUR%20SA-200.htm

It takes yrs of searching, and talking to oldtimers. (another 10yrs ill be one) :eek:

JTMcCracken
12-21-2006, 10:11 PM
I was talking to the Lincoln engine guy early this year in Tulsa and he said the Lincoln generator guys never really believed the complaints about the squared off generators. Several 798 hands drove out to Cleveland with both round and squared generators and several sets of pipe nipples and let the Lincoln people run 70+ downhill on the pipe and they realized that there was a real difference, even if they couldn't see it on a meter.
They found the old dies to stamp the round cases in a warehouse and put them back into use for the Classics.
I just finished a job with a guy that has a 200 from the last year the flathead was available. I believe his is a '94.
Lincoln would put your name on any of the Classics there for a while. A diesel powered, chromed out '69 would be pretty styling. I've considered buying a new 200D and putting the '69 generator on it.
But I'm really pretty tickled with my '98 Classic II and I'll probably continue to make my living with it.

JTMcC.

ShieldArc
12-22-2006, 08:35 AM
They found the old dies to stamp the round cases in a warehouse and put them back into use for the Classics.
I just finished a job with a guy that has a 200 from the last year the flathead was available. I believe his is a '94.
Lincoln would put your name on any of the Classics there for a while. A diesel powered, chromed out '69 would be pretty styling. I've considered buying a new 200D and putting the '69 generator on it.
But I'm really pretty tickled with my '98 Classic II and I'll probably continue to make my living with it.

JTMcC.

Without completely dissasembling my classic1 generator, I determined the shunt,
field, and interpoles were copper. I did find that the exciter coils were alum though.
I replaced the exciter coils with copper red face coils and it did help but it still didnt
weld like a red face. I think Lincoln didnt exactly duplicate the coils in the new
round generator housing. :mad:

Lucky
12-22-2006, 09:20 AM
Sheild Arc, Is the Fowler arc force kit kinda like the dig settings on a Miller?

JT, this is probably an ignorant question but can you tell me how you know when the coils go bad?

Does anyone know where to get chrome or stainless handles for the rheo and range switch? I'm showing a a little tlc to a 68 red face right now and this is becoming a good thread. Thanks guys. John

coalsmoke
12-22-2006, 12:50 PM
Sheild Arc, Is the Fowler arc force kit kinda like the dig settings on a Miller?

JT, this is probably an ignorant question but can you tell me how you know when the coils go bad?

Does anyone know where to get chrome or stainless handles for the rheo and range switch? I'm showing a a little tlc to a 68 red face right now and this is becoming a good thread. Thanks guys. John

there's a guy with a co. called "performance 53 pipeline" or something to that effect, he has a set, if all else fails you could send him an email and ask where he got his from.:cool:

EDIT: here's the guys website: http://www.perform53.com/

J Hall
12-22-2006, 12:56 PM
Those are polished aluminum from the '70s/'80s. Standard issue Lincoln.
Here is a link to knobs...http://www.ohmite.com/catalog/rheostat_hardware.html

ShieldArc
12-22-2006, 07:20 PM
Sheild Arc, Is the Fowler arc force kit kinda like the dig settings on a Miller?

JT, this is probably an ignorant question but can you tell me how you know when the coils go bad?

Does anyone know where to get chrome or stainless handles for the rheo and range switch? I'm showing a a little tlc to a 68 red face right now and this is becoming a good thread. Thanks guys. John

Yeah its a dig setting.
If you have a coil short, your machine wont have welding output.
You can have the original factory ones chrome plated or powdercoated.

ShieldArc
12-22-2006, 07:29 PM
Those are polished aluminum from the '70s/'80s. Standard issue Lincoln.
Here is a link to knobs...http://www.ohmite.com/catalog/rheostat_hardware.html

All the standard issue Lincoln knobs on 200s from 60s/80s are stamped steel. I guess they did look alum until they started rusting yrs later. Then they started making the black fiber plastic ones.

J Hall
12-22-2006, 07:51 PM
These are aluminum....

ShieldArc
12-22-2006, 10:20 PM
These are aluminum....

And a magnet sticks to these. I wish i had some alum ones. :)

J Hall
12-23-2006, 10:04 AM
Send them to the powder coater? or the Chrome shop?

JTMcCracken
12-23-2006, 12:36 PM
Ho! Ho! Ho!, Happy Christmas to all of you, regardless of what your dials are made of.
Personally, mine are hand hammered solid gold (not plated mind you!) with four half carat diamonds inlaid in each. To each his own I say.
And a happy and prosperous 2007 as well.

JTMcC;)

J Hall
12-23-2006, 01:39 PM
Ho! Ho! Ho!, Happy Christmas to all of you, regardless of what your dials are made of.
Personally, mine are hand hammered solid gold (not plated mind you!) with four half carat diamonds inlaid in each. To each his own I say.
And a happy and prosperous 2007 as well.

JTMcC;)

And to you!

If I had your talent, I could have gold handles too:cool: