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leeave96
07-09-2005, 06:24 PM
I put this question over on the Miller forum, but though I'd put it over here too - thanks!

When vertical Mig welding 3/16" thick plate into 'T' or 'L' shapes, should the joints be welded vertical up or down & why?

Would the same technique apply for both Mig and stick?

Thanks!
Bill

gwmotorsports
07-09-2005, 07:37 PM
Generally I would say go up. For mig welding, if you wanted a convex weld you would want to go up, and for a concave weld go vertical down. For stick welding always go up with 7018, never go downhill. For 6010 usually you would want to go up, but if you were welding the root pass on a pipe or something then I think you would go downhill. Also, always do a weave when do verticals, never try and do stringer beads except for the 1st pass, but even then its good to weave it a tiny bit.

Roospike
07-09-2005, 08:30 PM
I put this question over on the Miller forum, but though I'd put it over here too - thanks!

When vertical Mig welding 3/16" thick plate into 'T' or 'L' shapes, should the joints be welded vertical up or down & why?

Would the same technique apply for both Mig and stick?

Thanks!
Bill
Down would have less heat than up so you can keep this in mind when you have different thickness plate.

billie-1
07-10-2005, 09:08 PM
i work in steel ********...ther is a place i guess for down hand welding with stick...but in my business you would be run off the job for down handing a structural member

TOMWELDS
07-10-2005, 11:32 PM
Billie, when going down hill, isnt the weld getting contaminated by slag etc? Was wondering.

Sberry
07-10-2005, 11:40 PM
Depends, a lot of welding is done downhand. On 3/16 you could put full strength down hill if you needed to,,, but if a guy cant run uphill he needs to work on it. We dont do down because we cant do up. We use it because its fast and neat especially on thin sheet.

G Austin
07-11-2005, 07:38 AM
I put this question over on the Miller forum, but though I'd put it over here too - thanks!

When vertical Mig welding 3/16" thick plate into 'T' or 'L' shapes, should the joints be welded vertical up or down & why?

Would the same technique apply for both Mig and stick?

Thanks!
Bill

There are situation in which downhill progression works fine. 3/16" Carbon steel can be welded fine with GMAW downhill on this thickness however it is pretty easy to make a weld that "Looks" fine and may not have complete penetration at the root. In some applications, this may not even be a concern.

One of the problems with downhill welding is the ease in which the molten metal itself can run ahead of the arc. When this happens, less energy is going into the base metal to melt the base metal but is used keeping the puddle molted.

As mention before, some filler metals are better suited for downhill progression such as 6010, 6011 etc. There are also some FCAW-SS wires that are made for downhill progression one of which is E71T-11 .

Do this if you have the time, Weld one of each, cut through the middle of it with a saw, polish it up on the cut face, and look closely at the joint.

The progression is not the problem but it is the effects of gravity on the molten puddle that sometimes causes problem. As base metals get thicker, this can become more of an issue. For material less than 3/16" downhill is often not a problem and 3/16" is OK provided the weldor knows what is going on.

I have a couple of pictures on my website that are related to carrying too big of a puddle and not fusing to the base metal. These were not made downhill. These were done with plenty of heat, but the puddle was allowed to get too thick and prevented the base metal from melting. These are about the 6th and 7th pics down on this page http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/WorkPictures.htm
Or click the link next to these thumbnails
http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/pictures/9235630x-x_End_of_Subarc_Weld_on_Fabricated_Beam_small.JPGS ubarc Weld (http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/pictures/9235630x-x_End_of_Subarc_Weld_on_Fabricated_Beam.JPG)


http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/LackOfFusion_small.JPG Lack of Fusion in a FCAW E71T-1 Weld made Flat (http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/pictures/LackOfFusion.JPG)

Though not related, these are some things that can happen as the result of not keeping the energy from the arc, melting the base metal. Is this likely to happen with 3/16" steel ? NO

dieselstroke
07-11-2005, 06:12 PM
I got a question, a 7018 is a all postion right? Well why is it that running vertical
down or downhill, down hand whatever you all call it, causes porosity, and slag
pockets, but up hill does not. I don't run 7018's at all, nevr have to but some day I
will & it'd be nice to know. Thanks.

billie-1
07-11-2005, 07:17 PM
i agree that downhand has it's place..tight joints on sheet metal..and even many pipelines use a few passes of it in their underground pipes... on structural i even see it on pipe handrail .....but when the print says a 3/8 fillet..try that downhand..you will be putting on 25 passes and likely be way wide....go up and likely get in 2 and looking good

downhand has it's use but if you are using stick...try this on a peice of 1/4 inch or so...go down with your rod for say 8 inches....how much have you left...now go up with it..how much have you got left....you just welded the same distance adn if you welded properly you likely didn't make the whole 8 inches uphand....more metal in this case likely means a much stronger weld

TheDjost
07-11-2005, 08:03 PM
Diesel:

If you check carefully you will notice that 7018 is NOT all position. It's all position EXCEPT downhill.

The 3rd number:
0: all position
1: all position except downhill
2: horisontal or flat
3: flat only

A real all position lo-hi rod would be named 7008... but who has seen one of those? I never have. ;)


7018 has a very thick and fluid slag coating. It's so fluid that in vertical down, it falls off the puddle and solidifies in the joint below. In vertical up, it just falls back over the rest of the slag and does not get in the way of the puddle.


-Justin

Chrisp
07-11-2005, 08:52 PM
Tom, If you run downhand with any rod and don't maintain proper rod position, you will roll trash (slag, etc.) into your weld. When you run a flat bead you lean the rod 10 to 15 degrees or more if necessary in the direction of travel. The same thing applies to up, down, overhead, etc., etc. Even a rod held perpendicular to your work will tend to roll trash into your weld.

Sberry
07-11-2005, 09:42 PM
If you check carefully you will notice that 7018 is NOT all position. It's all position EXCEPT downhill.

The 3rd number:
0: all position
1: all position except downhill
2: horisontal or flat
3: flat only

A real all position lo-hi rod would be named 7008... but who has seen one of those? I never have.
If you check carefully
Show me somewhere all that is written.

MAC702
07-11-2005, 09:59 PM
This is the way I've always been taught and seen in experience:

The next to last digit indicates the position the electrode can be used in.

EXX1X is for use in all positions
EXX2X is for use in flat and horizontal positions
EXX3X is for flat welding

Trying to remember if I've EVER seen a zero, but it's late here.....

Zrexxer
07-11-2005, 10:04 PM
There is no possible zero in the third number. The only possible numbers as Mac said are 1, 2 or 3, and ****, I've never even seen a 3. A "1" indicates an all position rod.

Sberry
07-11-2005, 11:12 PM
There is actually a 4. flat, horiz, vert down and overhead, there is no 3. Lots of the 10 electrodes run downhill, 70, 80 and 9010 are listed for downhill pipe work and I have never seen anything in the classifications that indicated which direction the electrodes can be ran. They do list current type, polarity etc. They do list travel direction for fluxcore. By the way, I have ran lots of 7018 downhill, primarily on light sheet for seal welding or on occasion with poor fitup root pass. Very smooth, beautiful finish on light materials.

dda52
07-11-2005, 11:43 PM
In case anyone cares...the place to find the electrode numbers and classifications is the AWS A5.1 and A5.5 according to my Hobart Brothers Institute book. It quotes the AWS as saying what S'berry said..1= all position ( defined as flat, horizontal, vertical and overhead) 2= Horizontal ( def as fillet and flat only ) and lastly 4= flat, horizontal, overhead and verticle down. Those are the only ones ever listed. There is no "0" and or "3" listed in the third rank. ( E-xx_x ) The first two will indicate tensile stregnth (or three in the case of E-100xx rods or greater) ...the third is the position ( or fourth in the case of E-100xx or greater rods) and the fourth indicates coating type and welding current ( or fifth in the case or E-100xx or greater rods).

Zrexxer
07-11-2005, 11:46 PM
There is actually a 4. flat, horiz, vert down and overhead, there is no 3.There was a 3 at one time, anyway - not sure if it's still in current production. This reference is circa 1975 or so:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Zrexxer/Forums/Electrodes.jpg

Sberry
07-11-2005, 11:47 PM
Here is a pic of 7018 down. No holes, no porosity.

Sberry
07-11-2005, 11:49 PM
well,,, we asked you to find where it is written,, you did. Good find,, we can be wrong. Where did you find it?

Zrexxer
07-11-2005, 11:54 PM
Well, I'm not the one you asked to produce the reference, and I still maintain there's no "0" and that a "1" is all position. And my reference is thirty years out of date :D But for what it's worth that's from "Complete Book of Welding", by Gower A. Kennedy, Third Printing, 1975.

dda52
07-11-2005, 11:56 PM
Zrexx
I wondered about that after I posted. The AWS D5.1& 5.5 I have are from '81. Don't have anything older that I can find. I guess they were phased out...kinda like the 6012 and maybe the 6027 are in the process of.

I love going to the welding shops and asking for 6012's. Most of the yo-yo's behind the counter have never heard of them. They don't even know what a 6022 is at one store I go to. If it isn't a 6013, 6011 or 7018..they have trouble. Sad....very sad. :rolleyes:

Zrexxer
07-11-2005, 11:58 PM
Zrexx
I wondered about that after I posted. The AWS D5.1& 5.5 I have are from '81. Don't have anything older that I can find. So maybe I should replace my 1949 edition of Machinery's handbook someday too... lol. I guess things DO change in the world, now and then ;)

Sandy
07-12-2005, 12:02 AM
well,,, we asked you to find where it is written,, you did. Good find,, we can be wrong. Where did you find it?

I think what we are seeing in zrexxers attachent is 1 thru 3 in the third and 0 thru 6 in the fourth. Still no zero for the third. Correct me quick if I don't see it right.

Here's another scan job. This is out of the T.J. Glovers pocket reference that me and hank like.. :) I realize this guide isn't the ultimate authority but it is good material.

Sorry about the poor quality. Some words with this one too.

Sberry
07-12-2005, 12:03 AM
They do make 12 yet, have seen 22 and it says they make 27, none of which are very popular. On occasion you see 12 in old sheet metal shops but feeders have all but phased it out. I think the 20 and 30 are long gone,

Sberry
07-12-2005, 12:06 AM
well it looks like I was wrong on one count, my apologies to Justin, there certainly looks like there was a 3 at one time.

dda52
07-12-2005, 12:06 AM
They do make 12 yet, have seen 22 and it says they make 27, none of which are very popular. On occasion you see 12 in old sheet metal shops but feeders have all but phased it out. I think the 20 and 30 are long gone,

6022's are fairly popular in the circles I used to travel. Bought them by the pallet. 12's and 27's I have yet to lay a finger on...just know about them from books and old timers.

dda52
07-12-2005, 12:09 AM
So maybe I should replace my 1949 edition of Machinery's handbook someday too... lol. I guess things DO change in the world, now and then ;)


"Ceptin us????? :eek: I got called an old timer on a job a bit ago....When the @#&%^ did that happen?????????? :eek: I don't recall getting a memo that I was joining the old timers home...I mean club. ;)

TOMWELDS
07-12-2005, 01:09 AM
Im 44 and they still call me 'kid'..lol

TheDjost
07-12-2005, 05:17 AM
Well I was working from memory, and it looks like I was wrong. I Forgot one. Here's my reference:

It's in french but you should be able to understand it. The book is the 1984 edition, but I can assure that the 2005 has the same info in it ( I'm still in schoool learning all this stuff! )

-Justin

dda52
07-12-2005, 08:39 PM
Now it is making sense...sorta. You are getting your info from a AWS to CSA translation page...an old one at that. I just saw the list on the AWS 5.1-96...it shows #'s1,2, and 4 for position markers. No "0" or "3". I have no doubts that they once existed and were actually used, but that time has passed....by quite a margin from all I've seen so far.



So, if nobody uses them anymore...how come they are still teaching you crap you will never use?? :confused:

gwmotorsports
07-12-2005, 09:08 PM
You are getting your info from a AWS to CSA translation page...an old one at that. I just saw the list on the AWS 5.1-96...it shows #'s1,2, and 4 for position markers. No "0" or "3". I have no doubts that they once existed and were actually used, but that time has passed

I think the info TheDjost posted about 0 = all positions, and 1 = all except vertical down is the CSA standard. I also believe its still the standard, and I could look it up in my old welding school book if anyone wants. Also 7018 can be used for joining sheetmetal in vertical down, but as far as structual work goes, you never ever weld vertical down with 7018. Like some posted earlier you would get kicked off the job if you ever did that on a structural weld.

JTMcCracken
07-12-2005, 09:34 PM
Uphill or downhill isn't a "position", position is -flat, horizontal, vertical and overhead in the plate world. Any all position rod will run in any of those positions.

Uphill or downhill is the direction of progression.

There are LoHi rods made for downhill pipe made by Lincoln as part of their "Pipeliner" line of consumables. One is an 8018-G and the other is a 9018-G. Most people will never see one or have reason to use them but they do exist, I've got some LH-D80 (8018-G) in me truck.


JTMcC.

dda52
07-12-2005, 11:28 PM
My point was the current AWS list does not have the archaic listings and certainly doesn't make the stipulations that the CSA standard says it does. Like JT said, it lists POSITIONS, not progressions.....with the exception of #4 which lists verticle down ( JT, I had to go back and look to be sure....that is what it said with #4 )

If the Canahodian standards are going to quote the AWS, they oughtta at least get it right. No where in the AWS 5.1...any year since 1981, does it list any pogression except in #4 with the vert. down reference. It does not, again since 1981, seperate "all position" with and without vert. down. The book shown clearly says it does. It does not....at least it didn't say it a few years prior to the printing of the book, nor since. Even the reference from 1975 that Zrexx posted didn't have a "0" position..plus it didn't mention a "4" either. ....which is kinda the whole point. Things in this and other fields are fluid and change from time to time. We need to change with them or get left behind. ;)

Most stick weldors here know those numbers, or at least have a reference to verify. All our info says your is wrong...and ....all yours says ours is wrong. What can you do? What we need is to find a middle ground...something most can agree on. Like BEER! or WIMMENS! :D ...and stick with that rather than worry about some institutional/industrial standards entity that just can't get it right. Most of us that have burned a few rods usually can teach them a thing or two anyway. :rolleyes: ;)

TheDjost
07-13-2005, 05:24 AM
I'm still trying to find someone with a current CSA W48.1 norms book. Can you belive that the CWB (canadian welding bureau, our equivalent to the aws) wants 150 bucks for a copy!!

On the page I put up, if you look at the second pic, it says it describes the CSA W48.1 norm. The only place that AWS A5.1 is mentionned is in the note on the bottm of the page that says that the AWS retains the imperial system for electrode designation. They aded that because the CSA (and the rest of the world) now use the metric system in Mpa (megapascal) for electrode designation, and most rod makers print both designations on the box/rod since thay are also sold in the US.

The CSA is getting more an more in line with european standards.

JTMcCracken: If you have time, could you check on the box of LH-D80 (8018-G) you have if there would be a CSA (ACNOR) designation?

I'd like to get to the bottom of this, just to see if it's a difference in the AWS/CSA norms, or the fact that they are teaching (very) outdated info at the school I go to (wich would not suprise me a bit).

-Justin

TRG-42
07-13-2005, 07:10 AM
You CANNOT generalize whether or not a electrode can run vertical down ( or vertical up ) by the classification

The reason for this is you can have lots of E7018s but the slagging system ( the fluidity of the slag, its freezing characteristic etc can be all drastically different )

For example,

Lincoln Excalibur 7018MR ( E7018 ), and Excalibur 7018-1 ( E7018-1 ), Jetweld LH-70 ( E7018 ) like most E7018 are not really designed to run vertical down ( doesn't matter that someone was able to make a good defect free vertical down with it, it just means that the manufacturer is not comfortable saying that it is consistentently acceptable to run it vertical down

Lincoln Excalibur 7018-A1 ( E7018-A1 ) is designed to run vertical down as well as up

Lincoln 7018 AC (E7018 ) is designed to run down but in the 5G ( around a pipe ) but not really recommened for vertical down

Lastly as JT stated they also have true low hydrogen vertical down electrodes ( Lincolns LHD-80...LHD stands for low hydrogen down ... that are desinged for pipe welding. If you use these around a pipe and compare it to a typical E7018 there is a HUGE difference in the way the slagging system inteferes ( rather doesn not intefere ) with the puddle

Typically the problem running stick electrodes in the vertical down that are not desinged for it increase the chance of slag entrapment or excessively concave weld

Here you have lots of "low hydrogen" stick electrodes that are all desinged for different applications, some good for vertical down some not

To further confuse everyone there is actually a difference from a 3G down ( vertical down ) and a 5G ( vertical down around a pipe )

The only way to tell for sure is to look at the spec sheet


This confusion can also be found in self shielded flux cored wires. . Won't go into details but the very popular (structural steel, bridge etc ) E71T-8 type wires some are desinged for vertical down, some are not....even though they all have the same classification. Its all in the way the slagging sytem is designed. The funny thing is some are designed to go vertical down but NOT up, some can do both

Generally speaking the gas shielded flux cores like the ever popular E71-T1 / T-9 s are all desinged for vertical up but not down

JTMcCracken
07-13-2005, 09:04 AM
JTMcCracken: If you have time, could you check on the box of LH-D80 (8018-G) you have if there would be a CSA (ACNOR) designation?



-Justin


The 1/8" rod can says this:

"Conforms to AWS A5.5 and ASME SFA-5.5
Classification E8018-G
Certified by CWB to CSA W48 E5518-G"


On the 5/32" can the first two lines are the same but the 3rd line says:

"Certified by CWB to CSA W48.3 E55018-G"


You're not going to find a code book that's cheap.


JTMcC.

Timinmb
07-13-2005, 09:33 AM
Hobart "Pocket Welding Guide" Copyright 1973 respecting AWS A5.1-69 and A5.5-69 says regarding third or fourth digit=welding position

1=all positions
2=horizontal and flat only

No mention of 0 or 3.